Meal-Delivery Company GrubHub is Buying Thousands of Restaurant Web Addresses, Preventing Mom and Pop From Owning Their Slice of Internet (newfoodeconomy.org) 99
H. Claire Brown, reporting for The New Food Economy: GrubHub's commission fees had been inching upward over the years she'd [anecdote in the story] been working with the platform. There was the flat transaction fee, which hovered around 3 or 4 percent. Then there were marketing fees and costs for additional promotions. Shivane says she feels like the platform is increasingly pay to play: Spend more to promote your restaurant, and see your search rankings rise. Cut down on marketing spend, and watch your restaurant fall to the bottom of the page and lose sales.
"It's putting us in a financial hole. Last month, I paid $7,000 to GrubHub. That's my rent for the month," Shivane says. The New Food Economy viewed the company's invoice to Shivane's restaurant -- it was actually $8,000. We agreed to use only her first name and last initial in this story because she still uses the platform and fears the company could retaliate by dropping her restaurant to the bottom of its search rankings. Frustrated, Shivane started exploring other options. She says she thought about bulking up her restaurant's web presence and offering orders on her own site through a different service, one that offered a flat monthly rate and no commission fee.
There was just one problem: Someone already owned the web domain that matched her restaurant's name. She looked up the buyer. It was GrubHub. The New Food Economy has found that GrubHub owns more than 23,000 web domains. Its subsidiary, Seamless, owns thousands. We've published the full list here. Most of them appear to correlate with the names of real restaurants. The company's most recent purchase was in May of this year. Grubhub purchased three different domains containing versions of Shivane's restaurant's name -- in 2012, 2013, and 2014. "I never gave them permission to do that," she says.
"It's putting us in a financial hole. Last month, I paid $7,000 to GrubHub. That's my rent for the month," Shivane says. The New Food Economy viewed the company's invoice to Shivane's restaurant -- it was actually $8,000. We agreed to use only her first name and last initial in this story because she still uses the platform and fears the company could retaliate by dropping her restaurant to the bottom of its search rankings. Frustrated, Shivane started exploring other options. She says she thought about bulking up her restaurant's web presence and offering orders on her own site through a different service, one that offered a flat monthly rate and no commission fee.
There was just one problem: Someone already owned the web domain that matched her restaurant's name. She looked up the buyer. It was GrubHub. The New Food Economy has found that GrubHub owns more than 23,000 web domains. Its subsidiary, Seamless, owns thousands. We've published the full list here. Most of them appear to correlate with the names of real restaurants. The company's most recent purchase was in May of this year. Grubhub purchased three different domains containing versions of Shivane's restaurant's name -- in 2012, 2013, and 2014. "I never gave them permission to do that," she says.
1: Check your contract with them (Score:3, Insightful)
To see if enables them to do that without your protest.
If not, and probably anyway:
2: Get a lawyer that is familiar with this kind of shit.
Registrars can pull a registered domain name. Start filing complaints, and (etc) stuff that enables them to start the process *AFTER* you have checked your contract and spoken to a lawyer.
Re: 1: Check your contract with them (Score:5, Informative)
Here's what GoDaddy says about squatters:
https://www.godaddy.com/garage... [godaddy.com]
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Here is one example. I use www.kamakshiskitchen.com for my party food. They are local caterer. The name "kamakshi" is one of the family member's first name and is extremely uncommon. The GrubHub owns kamakshiskitchen.net and it is not hosted anywhere. This is a pure case of cybersquatting.
Re: 1: Check your contract with them (Score:4, Informative)
cybersquatting and you can take the domain back.
Its not that simple.... Recall the restaurants are SMALL businesses balking over a mere $8000.
The process for getting a domain from a cybersquatter requires either a UDRP action or Filing a Lawsuit in Federal court.
Either way, it costs about $3000 for the initial filing fee for the Arbitration action to dispute under UDRP, and a federal lawsuit is even more expensive. This all assumes the Restaurant would prevail ---- most restaurants do not have a Federal Trademark registration,
perhaps a state registration sometimes, Which precludes the possibility of prevailing against Grubhub; In other words the Restaurants may have no case.
Also; $3000 doesn't get the domain back --- that starts the process, assuming they own the federally registered trademark, and many more expenses would be incurred, so it could easily be $20,000 or more in costs to get the squat domain back AND
even if the restaurant prevails: it is likely that they are still out the $20K and do not recover attorneys fees or costs of litigating ---- Under most disputes and legal actions, each party pays their own filing fees and legal costs, unless the statute supporting the dispute provides for some recovery of those costs from the losing party.
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Precisely what class action suits are for. You may not like the 'only the lawyers win' aspect of some typical class actions - but in this case, the damages aren't the issue; let the lawyers take their cut. They're gonna fund fighting to get your rightful property back - and tarnish GrubHub's reputation, which apparently needs it.
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Except in this case almost surely class certification would be denied because of the substantial individual factual variation. A restaurant named Bob's Diner is very differently situated here than one with a very unique name. Maybe you could try and certify a class by all restaurants without a contract and federal registration of their trademark but I bet any restaurant which bothered to be that through went to the trouble to reserve their domain at the same time.
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Did you ever buy (or receive as an anonymous gift) anything that was wrapped in shrinkwrap? If so, then it's possible that you agreed to a contract when you did that. If there was anything inside the shrinkwrap that you didn't notice, your possible liabilities and signed-away-rights are virtually unlimited.
My cousin lost his house to a Chinese restaurant, all because he didn't return a fortune cookie for a full refund, and was therefore presumed to have agreed to the contract inside of it. He only got his
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The message in the fortune cookie is shrink wrapped. By the cookie!
This interpretation has never failed in court either.
A Bit Grubby Of Them (Score:3)
Well, they got that name right.
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Not only Grubby, but monopolistic and restraint of trade, etc.
Wait until a lawyer decides to take Grubby on for anti-competitive tactics in trying to lock in customers. I can see a federal class action lawsuit coming on this.
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Sure, but many SMB only register with their state as an entity. No USPTO filing for a nationwide trademark --- thus no basis for a UDRP or cybersquatting claim, etc, therefore no ability to claim the domain
Trademark Infringement (Score:4, Interesting)
If the busniess trademarks their name, they can get the domain back from GrubHub.
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Re:Trademark Infringement (Score:5, Informative)
UDRP cybersquatting complaints [icann.org] are low four figures and do not require an attorney.
Or you could, you know, read them [grubhub.com].
"The following claims are excluded from this Arbitration Agreement: (a) claims in small claims court; (b) claims to enforce or to prevent the actual or threatened violation of a party's intellectual property rights; (c) claims for temporary relief in connection with an arbitrable controversy; and (d) claims that are non-arbitrable per the applicable federal statute."
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To invoke the policy, a trademark owner should either (a) file a complaint in a court of proper jurisdiction against the domain-name holder (or where appropriate an in-rem action concerning the domain name) or (b) in cases of abusive registration submit a complaint to an approved dispute-resolution service provider (see below for a list and links).
so your choice in the US is to go to federal court or ... arbitration! The US “provider” is https://www.adrforum.com/ [adrforum.com]
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And you complained about having to go to court.
What are your losses for being denied access to a domain that you didn't register to begin with, exactly?
You mean you might have to do something?! Oh, no!
Now explain why optional arbitration is bad. As a bonus, explain how
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Because it's an inexpensive UDRP complaint process ($1500) per my response to your post.
Because you've labeled it as "arbitration" despite the fact that it's not conducted under general commercial arbitration rules, it's optional, and it's non-binding. How is it not arbitration? No... I don't need to prove a negative. You need to identify how the complaint process is "arbitrati
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Bullshit. Quote where I admitted that. In your own words [slashdot.org] the solution was "a case for federal courts," but you "bet" that there was some arbitration clause. Then, when shown that the arbitration clause did not apply, you labeled the UDRP complaint process arbitration. But the UDRP complaint process is not arbitration [balough.com].
That is the argument that I am responding to and that you are running away from, now blatantly.
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UDRP is not Federal Arbitration [balough.com]. Demand fulfilled. Your turn.
Re:Trademark Infringement (Score:4, Interesting)
I note that she didn't complain when GrubHub was paying the fees for the registrations so people could find her services and buy things from her, only when she wants to dump them.
I'm also curious, just how many "Shivane" and same last initial customers does she think GrubHub has, who paid $8000 last month, that she's protecting anything by being firstname lastinitial in the story?
UDRP doesn't require a trademark (Score:5, Informative)
Assuming GrubHub is not using the domain name to point to her business,
she can file a UDRP complaint. GrubHub is clearly on the face of it
- registered a name she uses in commerce AFTER she was already using it
- registered it in bad faith
- drives away business from her own website or wherever she chooses to send it
That's what the whole UDRP thing was designed for. Just ask Uzi Nissan.
Ehud Gavron
Tucson AZ US
-
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drives away business from her own website
How does she have a website without a domain name? She wants to have one, but she's come late to the game and the names she likes are already taken. Can I boot someone off of a .nom or .me domain when they're using my name?
Or, a closer analogy, can I get back the two domain names I registered many years ago and then let lapse, which are "in use" today only by domain name sellers who want to tell them back to me? The only reason they are registered today is because I had them registered and the squatters th
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How does she have a website? Simple - she set one up. You don't even
need a domain name... use your provider's subdomain name, your Amazon
Web Services name, your Google Cloud name, etc. and point your domain
name at the address. (CNAME or A DNS resource records.)
If you register a name, and it lapses, and someone else registers it IN BAD
FAITH to prevent you from using it, and THEY ARE USING IT then a UDRP
complaint will result in your getting your domain name back.
So the real question I alluded to in my orig
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How does she have a website? Simple - she set one up. You don't even need a domain name... use your provider's subdomain name,
So she has a domain name, belonging to her provider. There is something for Google to index so people can find her, just like they'd do if they Google to find her ... I think people looking for her site will be smart enough to know that a "doesn't resolve" site isn't hers, if they also have a link to a site that is.
So the real question I alluded to in my original post... is whether GrubHub is doing something with the domain name... namely pointing it to GrubHub... or whether they just registered it to keep her from doing so.
Appears to be some of each.
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Who the hell goes to the trouble of trademarking their name but doesn't buy the domain? It's much more expensive and much less practically useful.
So just another douchey company. (Score:2)
Thanks for the heads up!
Re: So just another douchey company. (Score:2)
If the founders aren't douchenozzles, the Sandhill Road VC Cabal won't fund it.
nothing a massive lawsuit can't fix (Score:2)
I can smell a juicy class action coming out of this.
Her name is "Shivane" ... (Score:3)
Shivane says. ... We agreed to use only her first name and last initial in this story because she still uses the platform and fears the company could retaliate by dropping her restaurant to the bottom of its search rankings. Frustrated, Shivane started exploring other options. ...
Like documentaries that don't show somone's face -- to protect them -- but do show their office, car, hands, watch, clothes, tattoos, etc... and also don't obscure their voice -- dumb.
Fuck GrubHub (Score:3)
GrubHub, Yelp, etc. are all parasitic scum that extort you for advertising fees, then retaliate by derankign you, posting false negative reviews, etc. when you don't constantly up your ad buy.
NEVER get into bed with any of them.
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Make your browser send a desktop browser string.
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I used to have a certain domain which I no longer needed, and permitted to lapse. Out of curiosity, I checked it a couple of days later - it'd already been snapped up. I don't know what the new site was about, but it was written in Chinese and opened popups. I imagine that some company has a scripted process for this - they monitor for domains that are abut to expire, snap them up the instant it happens, and then hope that the previous owner will realize they forgot to renew their registration and will be d
What's the difference... (Score:3)
I've seen many examples of registrars charging ungodly amounts of money for names that they feel are going to benefit a business.
Good for them! (Score:2)
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https://www.nolo.com/legal-enc... [nolo.com]
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If I went out and bought pizzapizza.ca, knowing Pizza Pizza is a canadian company, then I've intentionally cybersquated that domain, whereas if I buy orangepizza.ca and Orange Pizza is not a trademark at the time I buy the domain, then I haven't cybersquated, but I have acquired a domain fairly.
Regardless, ev
Re: Good for them! (Score:1)
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I believe, after reading the link, for cybersquating to apply, you'd have to buy the domain in question with the intention of taking an active trademark away from the rightful owner of the trademark.
If I went out and bought pizzapizza.ca, knowing Pizza Pizza is a canadian company, then I've intentionally cybersquated that domain, whereas if I buy orangepizza.ca and Orange Pizza is not a trademark at the time I buy the domain, then I haven't cybersquated, but I ha
Re: Good for them! (Score:1)
Wow like they need her permission? (Score:3)
Maybe she should donate to some politicians and buy some regulations to protect her business endeavors. lol like government cares about the little people in the private economy.
Just my 2 cents
Pretty Blatant Domain Squatting. (Score:2)
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GrubHub registering thousands of domains related to restaurants is a pretty blatant case of domain squatting.
Is it? Are they using the name so that customers can find the restaurant delivery service and web presence that the restaurant otherwise does not provide? If so, then they're increasing the business for them, and the use of the domain name seems quite reasonable.
Now, if that is how they're using the names, then they should give them up if the business owner ends the relationship. We don't know if they would for "Shivane X." because she's still a GrubHub customer.
shows they're doing this only to prevent their customer pool from opening their own web site,
No, that's not the only possible reason.
Not unless they have a contract with each and every restaurant they've stolen the domain from.
I t
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Are they using the name so that customers can find the restaurant delivery service and web presence that the restaurant otherwise does not provide? If so, then they're increasing the business for them, and the use of the domain name seems quite reasonable.
Did you read the article? Some of the GrubHub domains were registered to compete with a restaurant website that already existed.
GrubHub is going to dox this person (Score:5, Insightful)
It's 2019...if you print your first name, last initial, mention you have two American food (diners) restaurants in Brooklyn and Queens, and reveal you paid an invoice of $8000 to GrubHub it takes milliseconds to identify your customer records in their database.
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You can only use my first name and first initial of my last name!
Hmm, ok. What's your first name?
Shivane.
Yeah nobody will be able to figure out who you are.
Pass the charges through (Score:2)
Pass the charges through, in the form of a discount to customers who call your direct number. Don't make a big fuss about it. Just print the "secret" number and URL on paper menus handed out at your physical location. Eventually you may find that the secret is poorly kept and almost everybody is calling you directly. Then you can pluck the leaches off without worrying too much.
What am I missing? (Score:2)
If they are costing more a month than they bring in drop them altogether. If they make you $1/mo that's $1 more than you had.
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What you are missing is an important concept from economics. GrubHub's behavior is what is known as "rent-seeking": attempting to make money without adding any value by placing an obstacle in the marketplace. (The classic example is charging boats a fee to use a waterway that was formerly free. More insidious modern examples go by the name of "regulatory capture".) This is harmful to everyone: the producers whose businesses have been captured, and the consumers who pay higher prices and have fewer choi
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I get that a lot of that might be extreme examples.
I'm fed up (Score:2)
Alternate TLD (Score:2)
Re:Alternate TLD (Score:4, Interesting)