Google To Allow Location Service Opt-out 284
TripleP writes "In a kind gesture from Google, they're allowing wireless AP owners to opt out of their location service. You only have to change your SSID to include '_nomap' as a suffix. Is it just me, or should this 'service' be an explicit opt-in?"
you dont opt in to webcrawling (Score:5, Insightful)
you use a special robots.txt file to opt out of websurfing.. why should this be any different?
Re:you dont opt in to webcrawling (Score:5, Interesting)
I basically agree with your point aside from the fact that you don't have to change your domain name to add a _norobots.com suffix in order to opt out of web crawling.
Re:you dont opt in to webcrawling (Score:4, Insightful)
Not nearly the same situation either. When you put something on the web, you make it accessible to millions/billions of people. Your home AP is accessible to maybe 2 or 3 houses.
You shouldn't have to 'opt out' of this. It should be opt in.
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Your home AP is accessible to more than that -- like anyone walking or driving by your house. Things that are broadcast in the clear, including SSIDs, are inherently public.
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Yes, but most people don't walk around with scanners in their pocket. Range is also very limited. This should not be opt-out. Why does Google need to scan your home AP in any case?
Re:you dont opt in to webcrawling (Score:4, Insightful)
Yes, but most people don't walk around with scanners in their pocket.
Yes they do, they're called phones.
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Funny. Mine doesn't do packet inspection from the vendor. Claiming everyone walks around scanning and cataloging neighbors WiFi is disingenuous at best. Goggle went beyond that, storing more info than SSID.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geolocation [wikipedia.org]
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Why for the love of God would you say that? WiFi geolocation is very useful, and extremely important these days, especially if you're having trouble getting a GPS fix.
Furthermore: An SSD is broadcasted - it's public. Why would you have any expectation of privacy?
If I hang a big sign that says "Bemymonkeyland" out in front of my house, do I have a right to stop people from using that as a location marker? Do I need to opt in to letting people say "Oh yeah, sure, the nearest McDonald's is three blocks down th
Re:you dont opt in to webcrawling (Score:4, Insightful)
At the same time, Google doesn't really need to offer any solution at all. "Is it just me, or should this 'service' be an explicit opt-in?" You are opting in when you decide to start broadcasting radio waves. Complaining about having your wifi recorded is like yelling in a public place and then complaining that people notice.
Google might offer to ignore a network, but no one else will.
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But really what expectation of privacy do you really have when you are broadcasting a radio signal? It's not as if Google is decrypting your data. In the US I believe that would be illegal, and generally not something they would be interested in doing anyway. But recording a signal you are broadcasting I believe is still a-ok.
As far as security goes, I ran an experiment last year and I was really surprised just how bad wireless
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But then a website doesn't bathe me in radiation as i walk past your house - your wifi point does.
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The last place where I used to work used lots (over 25 per location) of barcode scanners that work over WiFi, and runs 24/7 shifts for order picking, loading and unloading. Changing the SSID may not entail much if you have a centralized management system, but these scanners have to be configured by hand through a touchscreen.
So no, changing SSIDs is not "always trivial". I would have much preferred if they just used the broadcast flag for it (i.e. don't catalog hidden SSIDs)
Differences (Score:2)
Neither of these is a particularly convincing argument for technical people, of course. I do not care about my ESSID and I know that radio transmissions are not
Re:reality vs expectation (Score:4, Insightful)
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And that the connections persist even in the yard or -gasp- out on the street as they drive away or up to their house. And it doesn't take much of a cognitive leap to realize that if they can see their network, that others quite possibly could too.
Actually, it takes a substantial cognitive leap for many people. Many people do not understand that a computer can record things, that these things can be automated, that cars passing by their house can detect wifi, etc.
Why do you think people name their networks funny and clever things? Would they take the time to think up names like "AMANDA_HAS_AIDS" or "get off my netz" if they didn't expect others to see them?
Why do you think people "name" their networks "linksys?"
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uh, do you know anything about networking?
Not broadcasting your SSID causes *problems*. Parts of network detection and certain devices/software have problems with turning off your SSID. It also doesn't add anything as far as security, not even remotely.
So adding _nomap sounds pretty reasonable to me, aside from that SSID's are not the best of concepts as they are implemented anyway.
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Reading my public SSID isn't a problem. Using it, and the details, is.
So you can read my SSID, but cracking my security and publishing the location isn't necessarily.
Of course, our courts in the U.S. are hell-bent on stripping the populace of any rights at all. This alone is reason enough to throw them all out.
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I'm not sure why you want to limit my rights to publish the location of something that you broadcast to the public. I'm not cracking it, and I'm not even trying to log into it. I just capture the beacons and note the likely location based on GPS triangulation. Why do you consider that so private that I cannot publish it even though you're making it possible for me to see and locate it, especially when you accept that it's not an issue that I can see it?
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Same argument for not allowing you to record a broadcast tv show and rebroadcasting it.
Especially if you intend to derive some value from it.
Though in practice I would not, as my post said, not be bothered. If you posted access info I would consider that wrong.
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How is creating a list of WiFi access points and their locations the same as rebroadcasting TV? It's more like copying a page out of the TV Guide.
Damn your AP has some big range... (Score:2)
_nomapo of course. Just sayin.
For Facebook and Google+ (Score:4, Interesting)
Everyone who doesn't want to get tracked by Facebook please change his name to Joe_NoFacebook Smith. Everyone who doesn't want to get tracked by Google +, add a "noPlus" instead. And everyone who doesn't want to get tagged by the Facebook picture recognition will please use a neon green colored "F" tattoo on their forehead.
Thank you for your cooperation.
Is anyone at Google still thinking anything? Do no Evil my ass.
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Hello,
I changed my name to Peter_NoFacebook Jones, but now I also want to opt out of Google+.
I tried various iterations of the following:
Peter_NoFacebook_noPlus Jones ...but none of them seem to be working.
Peter_NoFacebook_NoPlus Jones
Peter_noPlus_NoFacebook Jones
Peter_NoPlus_NoFacebook Jones
Is the "noPlus" flag case-sensitive, and is the ordering specific to either Facebook or Google? What is the delimeter for the Google+ opt-out.
What should I name my daughter? Are these flags compatible with feminine name
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WTF is this crap doing being modden up?! Is this slashdot? Or did I somehow get lost on the Internet?! There is nothing evil about receiving and decoding radio signals. Keep your radiowaves to yourself if you don't want to be noticed. Just don't broadcast. It's that simple.
It is utterly ridiculous it is somehow considered normal for just about anybody to transmit their filthy radio waves right through my body while listening to them is somehow considered evil. This is so incredibly wrong.
Go Google! Keep up
If you don't want your SSID to be mappable (Score:5, Informative)
Then don't broadcast it!
They aren't doing any snooping on your private data here, just noting where different SSIDs are broadcasting. Unless your SSID name consists of your name, DOB, mother's maiden name, etc. you have nothing to worry about.
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My SSID does consist of my name, so that if my neighbors have a problem with my wi-fi, they know to contact me.
I'm fine with everyone within wi-fi range knowing my name and where my house is (since they already do). I'm less fine with my name and house being pin-pointed on a map for everyone to see.
Re:If you don't want your SSID to be mappable (Score:5, Informative)
But it's not. Nobody can look on a map and see your name, If they're standing by your house and can receive the signal then they can tell where they are, but that's all.
(Unless Google are now publishing the complete lookup table, in which case I feel somewhat different.)
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So.. every device gets a long meaningless list of seemingly random letters and numbers. (not quite random, diff
Opt-in (Score:5, Insightful)
Everything should be opt-in. Never opt-out.
Re:Opt-in (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Opt-in (Score:5, Funny)
He won't answer that because you didn't give him permission to.
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Everything should be opt-in. Never opt-out.
I would be fine with opt-out if all it took was appending "_notax" or "_freeman" to my name.
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Everything should be opt-in. Never opt-out.
I know you've probably never given it a second thought, and now might seem like a reaaaallly bad time--but would you like to opt in to our defibrillation program?
Ok--real quick now CANIDEPLOYAIRBAGSRIGHTTHEFUCKNOW?
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Then can I please opt out of my neighbours transmitting their radiowaves into my home?
You are turning things upside down, as is half the world. Just like it is not very common for people to be able to opt out of nearby people hearing them screaming, it is rather difficult for you to opt-out of my antenna receiving the radio signals your radio broadcasts. If you don't want to be heard, don't broadcast. It's that simple.
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Organ donation is opt-in so what was your point?
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You could, however, argue that it reflects VERY poorly on us that we need organ donation to be opt-out before we see a large number of organ donors...
Human nature is generally lazy.
If something is opt-in, most people won't opt-in.
If something is opt-out, most people won't opt-out.
We can argue about public policy and organ donation, but when it comes to our privacy
anyone who argues for a default opt-in/out that provides less privacy does not have your best interests in mind.
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Yes (Score:4, Insightful)
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Opt-in? Just like my neighbours should explicitly get my permission to broadcast their fugly SSID into my home!
IMHO broadcasting voids any reasonable expectation of not being noticed. This should not be opt in or opt out or whatever. Anybody is and should always be allowed to receive any radio signals. If you don't want me to receive your radiosignals, keep them to yourself.
Why do you care? (Score:5, Insightful)
So as I said, nice of Google to do this, but I'd question what anyone who opted out really hopes to accomplish by doing so...
Re:Why do you care? (Score:4, Interesting)
While it is nice of Google to offer this, I don't really understand why people care. The SID was always public information as are the location of the AP. So to then turn around and accuse Google of invade your privacy by recording what essentially you've told your AP to shout from the rooftops seems a little contradictory to me. It isn't like SIDs are personal or in any way linked to you as an individual or even your surfing activity. So as I said, nice of Google to do this, but I'd question what anyone who opted out really hopes to accomplish by doing so...
An SSID of "I hate Islam" might work well in the leafy suburbs of Surrey, but you might not want the location broadcast world wide
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but you might not want the location broadcast world wide
Sorry, where can I download the complete database of AP locations? Because as far as I know, the database "read access" works the other way around. Your phone submits a list of APs around you to Google's servers and in turn you get your approximate location. I don't understand what the problem here is.
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Then change it?
"I hate Islam _nomap" it is then.
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"Public information => no need for privacy" is a very typical logical fallacy. Privacy is not a black-or-white thing, categorizing things into private/public misses the point.
For example: when you move out of your home, your location is public information. Anyone who can see you knows that you're there. Similarly, your "image" is public information, anyone can take a picture of you. This does not violates your privacy, as long as it happens by random people in the street. If someone tracks your every mov
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Wrong! (Score:2)
My middle name of Linksys goes back six generations, you insensitive clod!
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I could see a case where someone's life may be in jeopardy if there was a searchable index of SSID names that automatically zooms into a location on a map. Someone being stalked by an aggressive ex, for instance, who doesn't realize their SSID is tied to a map location that is easily searchable. Let's say said aggro ex set up the WAP in first place and so knows the SSID but lost it in the divorce/breakup, or even willingly gave it up knowing they'd eventually be able to search for it via google maps.
Considering the value to society... (Score:2)
Re:Considering the value to society... (Score:5, Insightful)
You have the right answer. Nobody seems to think about the greater good any more. Large corporations and governments already have access to all of this data. Google is just making it available for regular people in an incredibly useful way. It's perfectly valid to have problems with this, but don't ignore the benefits as well.
Opt-in is not an option (Score:5, Interesting)
There's no point saying "It should be opt-in", because it can't possibly work on an opt-in basis. There's no way to get a sufficient number of opted-in wireless access points. The available options are "Opt-out is OK" or "The service shouldn't exist".
Re:Opt-in is not an option (Score:5, Insightful)
There's no way to get a sufficient number of opted-in wireless access points.
Boohoo? Since when is that information owed to Google?
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Its public since you started broadcasting it.
Google is part of the public.
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Agreed. I have quite a different opinion from a number of people, evidently. This article on Slashdot is the first I'd heard of this (and I am sure I'll get some abuse for admitting that, but...). I work in the IT field, have done so for 25 years professionally (many more years as a hobby, like most people), and read tech sites like Slashdot on a daily basis.
So my reaction is that if someone in my position is only just becoming aware of this, how is Joe Public going to hear about this? Forget about "it's pu
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The available options are "Opt-out is OK" or "The service shouldn't exist".
Then the service shouldn't exist. Simple enough.
But then again, there may be a third option you're not considering. What are these location services used for? Checking into restaurants, tagging pictures with locations, checking the weather, etc. Where do I do these things? Mostly when I'm out on the town, or at home. So, make deals with Starbucks, AT&T, Barnes and Noble, etc. to use their SSIDs in the database. These companies have vast networks of wifi hotspots so it should cover a good deal of high tr
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What about other mapping systems? (Score:2)
What happens if I want to hide my access point from Apple, Google and Skyhook at once? Should I name by AP as
LINKSYS_NOMAP_NOAPPLE_NOSKYHOOK
or will this be a global suffix?
Re:What about other mapping systems? (Score:5, Insightful)
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What happens if I want to hide my access point from Apple, Google and Skyhook at once? Should I name by AP as
LINKSYS_NOMAP_NOAPPLE_NOSKYHOOK
or will this be a global suffix?
From TFA:
COMMENT_NOMODTROLL_MODFUNNY (Score:3)
_nomodunderrated_nomodflamebait_modawesome_doubleawesome_kthx
I don't really mind (Score:5, Funny)
I don't care that much if Google maps my AP. Because if someone is lost out where I am, they're going to need all the help they can get.
Paranoia much? (Score:3)
Why in the heck do you people care if Google maps your AP's location? It's not like this information can be used for anything but it's intended purpose: wifi location services.
Making it opt-in would make it useless as people won't care enough to opt-in.
This isn't a privacy issue at all. The tinfoil-hat crowd really needs to get a life.
You are BROADCASTING your SSID. (Score:5, Interesting)
If you don't want something known to anyone within range, you might consider not BROADCASTING it. Every access point in the world has the ability to shut off its SSID announcements.
Re:You are BROADCASTING your SSID. (Score:5, Informative)
Every access point in the world has the ability to shut off its SSID announcements.
If you're not broadcasting your SSID, Google will still map it. If you don't want them to, you'll actually have to broadcast an SSID, and append _nomap to it, since anyone can find your router's MAC address even if you're not broadcasting your SSID.
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Wait, are you saying that the Google Street View cars (if they're still doing it) or an Android's wifi device magically know that a non broadcasting wifi AP is even there?
WHAT MAGIC IS THIS?
Yeah, I don't think you've thought this through properly.
(Incidentally, you can still name your AP whatever you like, even with broadcast being off. Otherwise, how do you associate a laptop or another wifi based device?)
Google maps you regardless of whether or not your SSID is set to broadcast.
It's not magic, you just have no idea what you're talking about.
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The thing is, where exactly would you draw the line?
Yes, I'm broadcasting my SSID - however, my reason for doing so is that I don't have to tell guests, patrons, etc. what the SSID is supposed to be and how they can enter that on their OS of choice. All OS's have at least a user-friendly method for connecting to an AP that does broadcast its SSID.
I'm leaving aside that Google may still record APs that simply don't broadcast an SSID and thus requiring you to actually turn it on and fill in something along w
Line your walls with lead (Score:3, Insightful)
Prevent your SSID from going outside of your property and you won't have a problem, then.
Not sure why it matters (Score:2)
I value privacy as much as the next person but I don't see why this matters. Network names do not give away anything personal unless you *choose* to put something personal into the SSID. And if you do that you have "opted in" to broadcasting your personal information. Or am I missing something here?
Hidden SSID is not the Answer... (Score:2)
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Many ISPs require you to tell them if you have a new MAC Address.
Access gets cut off if the modem sees a different MAC than the DSL/Cable line says it should be seeing.
Publically broadcasted info (Score:5, Funny)
Nanosphere'); Drop
Table SSIDs;--
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They probably learned their lesson when Little Bobby Tables signed up for G+.
Obligatory xkcd. [xkcd.com]
The SSID isn't actually used by the service (Score:4, Informative)
Just to clarify what seems to confuse some people here, the actual service doesn't use the SSID for location, it uses the MAC address. They're using the SSID to allow you to opt out, but when someone submits WIFI info for location, they're sending the mac address of the station, not the SSID. MAC addresses are unique (or at least they're supposed to be. I'm looking at you Shanzai.) SSIDs are not unique. If they used SSIDs, you'd never be able to figure out where "linksys" or "netgear" actually are.
They've got it backwards (Score:2)
Mobile devices typically allow users to turn this off. On my Android Xperia X10, it's under "Location and Security Settings" and has separate flags for GPS & wireless networks.
Broadcasting here... (Score:2)
When I set up an AP I'm broadcasting the SSID to everyone in range. I know this when I set it up. It's pretty much a physical requirement of wireless that you broadcast at least it's presence. Even secured point-to-point links broadcast a signal that any receiver in range can pick up. If I care that people know my AP exists in a particular spot, I shouldn't be using a broadcast technology!
NB: getting on my wireless won't help you much. Most of the computers in my home are on the wired LAN for security and t
I've had it w/ Google (Score:2)
The privacy raping is putrid. I simply don't trust them, but I still have to wait until either another contract change (how about Slashdot post the article in time next go around?) or until April to sever all ties. I went Android because it seemed to have more favorable developer sales contracts, but I'll deal with the Apple sandbox to not have my contact info monetized.
Morons! (Score:2)
If you broadcast something over any radio service (part 15 wifi included) and you think it is or should be private...
YOU ARE A MORON
MORON MORON GO AWAY, RETURN TO THE NETS ANOTHER DAY (or don't).
I care so much because I don't want to see any new laws restricting the use of receivers. I don't want to see somebody's imagined (and in this case it really is imaginary) privacy rights to result in new restrictions on something that might actually have been useful
For Sale: List of People who Opted Out (Score:2)
Why not make it work the way DoNotCall.gov works? (Score:4, Insightful)
Why not allow users to enter their MAC address on something like donottrack.google.com - and remove AP from their database based on the entered information? That would be a proper method, that would work instantly, rather than relying on periodic rescan of your general vicinity. It would also avoid having to reconfigure every computer, wireless printer and other devices on the network, having a ridiculous looking SSID and general douchebaggery.
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Yes, you CAN. As many seem to be proving. That doesn't mean you wouldn't be an unreasonable @$$ for doing so.. as many seem to be proving.
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Not necessarily. Secondly, gsm routinely drops to unencrypted calls as well.
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A t-shirt with "_nomurder" printed on the back would be cool.
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