Why a Chinese Company Is the Biggest IPO Ever In the US 191
An anonymous reader writes The Chinese e-commerce giant Alibaba has made headlines lately in US financial news. At the closing of its Initial Public Offering (IPO) on Friday, it had raised $21.8 billion on the New York Stock Exchange, larger even than Visa's ($17.9 billion), Facebook's ($16 billion), and General Motors ($15.8 billion) IPOs. Some critics do say that Alibaba's share price will plummet from its current value of $93.60 in the same way that Facebook's and Twitter's plummeted dramatically after initial offerings. Before we speculate, however, we should take note of what Alibaba is exactly. Beyond the likes of Amazon and eBay, Alibaba apparently links average consumers directly to manufacturers, which is handy for an economy ripe for change. Approximately half of Alibaba's shares "were sold to 25 investment firms", and "most of the shares went to US investors."
Name (Score:1, Redundant)
I think Alibaba is a stupid namr.
The first thing I think of is "Alibaba and the 40 thieves"
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http://abcnews.go.com/Business/alibaba-chinese-company/story?id=25591454 [go.com]
"Alibaba -- open sesame. Alibaba -- 40 thieves," Ma said. "Alibaba is not a thief. Alibaba is a kind, smart business person, and he helped the village. So...easy to spell, and global know. Alibaba opens sesame for small- to medium-sized companies. We also registered the name AliMama, in case someone wants to marry us!"
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Alibaba is a kind, smart business person
Somehow I keep reading thief.
Re:Name (Score:5, Informative)
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It's a victimless crime. Or rather, a crime where the victim deserves it. It kinda cancels itself out.
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It's not that there were forty of the thieves ... no no, they stole 40's. Malt liquor goes back quite a ways.
Why? Because (Score:1)
Because it could enlist in the US without changing it's management structure. The US financial regulations don't hinder the execution of family values.
The other Pacific Ring (Score:1)
1) US prints money and invests in China
2) China builds stuff
3) US buys stuff.
4) China buys US stocks/bonds/securities.
5) US invests in China - stock
GOTO #2
Profits are somewhere in there. Eventually the banks will figure out that you can just bounce between #4 & #5. Profits come with bailouts.
Don't buy/invest in mainland China (if you can) (Score:5, Insightful)
I know that this is a hard choice (especially since I heard Alibaba has soared by 38% in its first day) but please consider the following:
About 5 years ago I stopped investing in Chinese companies. Why? Because I didn't want to support even indirectly a regime that, without apology, oppressed Tibet and supported the despotic regime of North Korea. I hold them largely responsible for sacrificing millions of my long-separated brothers (yes, I'm ethnic Korean) through starvation and torture simply to keep a "buffer state" in between them and the "capitalist" (ha ha, what irony) South Korea and U.S.
My stance was only hardened by their support, for purely geopolitical/economic considerations (OIL), of Syria and Iran (and, I think Libya). They and Russia have kept those regimes propped up and have made the tragedies in the Middle East even worse (of course America started it but at least we know now that most of us were idiots to be led by one). That's not to mention the authoritarian and despotic regimes that the Chinese GOVERNMENT is supporting in Africa purely for their resources.
Look, I know the West (and especially the U.S.) have done a LOT of bad things but the Chinese government doesn't even make a pretense of things like human rights, even in their own country. As I've said, they've been willing to sacrifice millions for a modicum of security (they could've asked the U.S. and S. Korea if, in return for not letting the Kims return to North Korea from one of their trips to China, we would promise not to put American troops north of the 38th parallel. As if S. Korea would even want American troops on the peninsula once the threat was gone). Now, living in S.E. Asia, I see firsthand how the Chinese government with its growing power is throwing away treaties and agreements it has signed in order to bully the Vietnamese and Philippines with their ridiculous "cow tongue" shaped demarcation of the seas. They are returning to 19th century "gunboat" diplomacy in the 21 century world.
I fear that as China grows ever stronger, they will continue to discard previous commitments to peace and will literally force their will upon the world. Is that what you want to support? I'm a realist, and I love my gadgets and my improved standard of living brought on by the flood of low-cost Chinese products (often produced with stolen patents and technologies but that's another story) and I'm not quite ready to live without. However, when there's a choice, when you can purchase something that is identical (hopefully) in every way including price to another but one is made in China and one was made in Sweden(?), I hope you'll make the same choice I do.
If the Chinese government, not the U.S. government had the power the NSA has; would any of us have any protection at all? Think of what kind of world that would be to live in. (That's what 1.2 billion people ARE living in).
(If you're wondering why I'm advocating not buying/investing in China and hurting Chinese citizens as opposed to just their government, remember that the world boycotted South Africa during their Apartheid regime even though it undoubtedly hurt many whites and blacks who were good people. And it worked.)
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they will continue to discard previous commitments to peace and will literally force their will upon the world.
I think people who are investing in Chinese companies are forgetting one thing. China could easily become an aggressor much the same way Russia is with the Ukraine. If China were to get in a war with Japan over Japan's northern islands, the share value of these companies could evaporate overnight.
As much as investing in BRICs [wikipedia.org] is tempting, it can not be forgotten that most of these places are not democracies.
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Brazil and India are certainly democracies.. and Russia nominally is one.
Our hands aren't clean either (Score:3)
China could easily become an aggressor much the same way Russia is with the Ukraine.
Or the way the US is/was with Afghanistan, Libya, Iraq, Vietnam, Panama, Cuba (Bay of Pigs), etc. Furthermore have you forgotten how the US was founded? (Hint, it wasn't populated with white people 200 years ago.) Have you forgotten the number of dictators that the US has installed and supported including but not limited to [wikipedia.org] Saddam Hussein, Francisco Franco, Hosni Mubarak, Augusto Pinochet and many many more.
Let's not pretend the US has been some paragon of virtue over the years, shall we?
If China were to get in a war with Japan over Japan's northern islands, the share value of these companies could evaporate overnight.
If that happens,
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So? Neither are our democracies anymore.
Capitalism is enamored with Fascism (Score:2)
China has arguably moved from communism to fascism [opendemocracy.net] and as Mussolini stated "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." One can see many of the tenants of an oligarch's paradise: a single party police/surveillance state, labor unions are outlawed, environmental regulations are practically non-existent, imminent domain is abused, and there is an income inequality that even surpasses the US. Capitalism has chosen the most profitable government
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From the wiki link,
The election of Roosevelt was upsetting for many conservative businessmen of the time, his "campaign promise that the government would provide jobs for all the unemployed had the perverse effect of creating a new wave of unemployment by businessmen frightened by fears of socialism and reckless government spending."
Boy, the more things change the more they stay the same.
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Yeah, but Roosevelt didn't fix the Great Depression, WW2 did.
And before WW2, our Government was in a much better position than it is now --- which is arguably in the bind it is in, from an unholy combination of military spending (Republicans love this) and from poor Medicare/D/SS design and paying government/civil workers too much and giving many of them overly-generous retirement packages after just 20 years work (Democrats love all of this).
The USPS, after it was spun off, reformed its pension plan, and w
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Well, I know I'd rent from an oligarch's paradise, so I don't see why they wouldn't have a lot of tenants.
Or did you mean "tenets"? Never mind.
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Want favorable or unique business advantages or just doing away with the arbitrary rules imposed by the thoughtless masses? Just think what profit you could make with the power available to the Chines
China screws foreigners (Score:1)
I was going to say that China screws foreigners. Companies that want to do business in China have to bribe the local officials, and trade away intellectual property. The government will make up regulations that favor local manufacturers. In addition, China has lots of spies steal foreign technology.
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As Chinese economy grows, so does its middle class. As its middle class grows, it demands more democratic reforms and more government responsibility - ultimately, a way to better China, for both its people and its neighbors.
So if you want a better China, you should do the exact opposite of what you're doing.
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As Chinese economy grows, so does its middle class. As its middle class grows, it demands more democratic reforms and more government responsibility
Well, maybe. Or maybe it just demands a higher standard of living, one which cannot be supported without more oppression.
Middle class will moderate China -- debunked idea (Score:3, Interesting)
As Chinese economy grows, so does its middle class. As its middle class grows, it demands more democratic reforms and more government responsibility - ultimately, a way to better China, for both its people and its neighbors.
That was the Nixon/Kissinger theory of the 1960s/70s. It was used to cut China all sort of political and economic slack. It was proven wrong by the 1989 Tiananmen Square Massacre.
So if you want a better China, you should do the exact opposite of what you're doing.
No. If you want a better China then the US should treat China as China treats the US. Have reciprocal economic and trade policies, punitive measures for egregious behavior, ... No more cutting them slack hoping they will moderate over time, no more treating them like they are an impoverished developing nation, ... To create an envi
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That was the Nixon/Kissinger theory of the 1960s/70s. It was used to cut China all sort of political and economic slack. It was proven wrong by the 1989 Tiananmen Square Massacre.
Was it, though? China circa 1960s/70s was a totalitarian dictatorship where Tiananmen square was an impossibility simply because any dissent would be crushed long before it would get to mass protest stage, and the yearly number of victims was far greater, too. Compared to China after Tiananmen, the latter is far more liberal. It's even more liberal today.
If you want a better China then the US should treat China as China treats the US. Have reciprocal economic and trade policies, punitive measures for egregious behavior, ... No more cutting them slack hoping they will moderate over time, no more treating them like they are an impoverished developing nation,
I did not suggest doing such a thing. The best thing you can do is just trade (and yes, this doesn't preclude e.g. tariffs to even out the price of labor d
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China circumvented that by arriving already at where the US is still heading: A rather small sliver of rich people oppressing a mass of poor ones, while at the same time ensuring that there is little upwards mobility, but just enough to create the odd success story to keep everyone believing in the dream.
That way you can effectively eliminate a middle class. But don't worry, the US is working hard to get rid of what's left of its middle class, then the two countries will be on par again.
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Did you see the stats for the growth of their middle class over the past 15 years or so?
I'm not disputing that the country is ardently capitalist and has tightly guarded elite circles. But for most people in there, that's not where they are aiming for. What they want is basically just comfortable living, and their standard for it is getting pretty close to what the West enjoys. And with every new generation, there are millions more actually enjoying it - even though there's still hundreds of millions locked
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What comes to mind is an engineering company I worked as a contractor for in the early 2000s. They were looking to see about a factory in China, since California isn't exactly a state that likes physical stuff being made, even back around 9/11.
Well, during the negotiations the corporate officers abroad visiting were arrested for some vague charge, and it was told to the CEO that they either would be put in a Chinese prison for 20 years, or the company would set up a venture, on Chinese terms, with 51% owne
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Re: Don't buy/invest in mainland China (if you can (Score:1)
Business first, politics second.
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About 5 years ago I stopped investing in Chinese companies. Why? Because I didn't want to support even indirectly a regime that, without apology, oppressed Tibet...
Yeah, I thought the same thing too... but then I found out that the people who ruled Tibet before China were not exactly wonderful to live under either.
Really, it is a wash for the people of Tibet: Live under one tyranny or live under another.
more direct connection to producers (Score:5, Interesting)
The reason Alibaba will take over from Amazon and Ebay is simple. Two things.
First, scale. It moves more product than Amazon and Ebay COMBINED, and that's before even entering the US market. The network effect will dominate.
Second the vast majority of what Amazon and (especially!) Ebay sells is made in factories in China anyway. Alibaba will allow cheaper prices for the same products without having to go through the middlemen and let Ama/Eba skim off profits in the middle.
If i can buy a part directly from the manufacturer in China for $3.99, I'm not going to pay $11.99 for Amazon to deliver it to me or even $5.99 for an Ebay reseller.
Alibaba will have a price advantage on the other big players, and that's what'll matter in the end.
I sure wouldn't be wanting to hang onto Amazon or Ebay stock right now (assuming either have stock, sorry I don't keep track of things like that).
Re:more direct connection to producers (Score:4, Insightful)
The reason Alibaba will take over from Amazon and Ebay is simple. Two things.
First, scale. It moves more product than Amazon and Ebay COMBINED, and that's before even entering the US market. The network effect will dominate.
Second the vast majority of what Amazon and (especially!) Ebay sells is made in factories in China anyway. Alibaba will allow cheaper prices for the same products without having to go through the middlemen and let Ama/Eba skim off profits in the middle.
If i can buy a part directly from the manufacturer in China for $3.99, I'm not going to pay $11.99 for Amazon to deliver it to me or even $5.99 for an Ebay reseller.
Alibaba will have a price advantage on the other big players, and that's what'll matter in the end.
I sure wouldn't be wanting to hang onto Amazon or Ebay stock right now (assuming either have stock, sorry I don't keep track of things like that).
Right... So, people have stopped buying monitors from Dell simply because they can buy similar Korean monitors direct on eBay? No? Oh, right, because people like to have warranties and have the ability to get stuff replaced in a timely manner when it fails.
Also, you're wrong about Alibaba's business model today. They are the middle men between the manufacturer and the storefront. They do have an eBay style system, but it's used by independents, not Alibaba, to sell products. And yes, they also have a Paypal type service, but it would have to clear a large number of hurdles to become trusted in the US.
Re:more direct connection to producers (Score:4, Insightful)
And yes, they also have a Paypal type service, but it would have to clear a large number of hurdles to become trusted in the US.
Lack of trust certainly hasn't kept Paypal from being popular.
Just read the countless stories... they can do pracatically anything they want with the money in "your" PP account.
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Some sellers on Alibaba offer some sort of warranty. I ordered 8 motorized ball valves from a factory through Alibaba (these things are hard to get here as they are not aimed at consumers, and priced at €250 a pop. Same item from China: $40). One of them appeared to be l
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Right... So, people have stopped buying monitors from Dell simply because they can buy similar Korean monitors direct on eBay? No? Oh, right, because people like to have warranties and have the ability to get stuff replaced in a timely manner when it fails.
I have stopped buying electronics from US companies because I can get the same quality (sometimes better) buying directly from Chinese factories. The prices are better and they offer 6 month warranties on just about anything (and I have tested these warranties).
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I sure wouldn't be wanting to hang onto Amazon or Ebay stock right now (assuming either have stock, sorry I don't keep track of things like that).
If I were you, I wouldn't even take my own advice on stocks.
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If i can buy a part directly from the manufacturer in China for $3.99, I'm not going to pay $11.99 for Amazon to deliver it to me or even $5.99 for an Ebay reseller.
The problem is, last time I wanted to get something through Alibaba, I had to order at least 10 times the amount I needed, or get a sample for 10 times the shipping costs through FedEx (or similar). I checked the shipping costs from china myself and they were correct. This made the transaction not worth it so I just waited 2-3 months for someone to buy in bulk to dilute the shipping cost and to resell in small quantities on eBay ... the middle man saved me money.
That was 2-3 years ago, but nowadays I see sm
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alibaba.com targets the wholesale market; but there is also aliexpress.com which is for the consumer market and you can buy items individually there.
Re: more direct connection to producers (Score:2)
I know I will never buy from Alibaba, and I buy from Amazon everyday.
Just like I go to high-end stores and supermarkets but not to low-cost factory outlets.
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The reason Alibaba will take over from Amazon and Ebay is simple.
Have you ever ordered from China before? Because your comments overlook a few things.
1. Shipping. I have never received anything that's been shipped from China in less 3 weeks, and it's usually been closer to 5 or more. (Coincidentally, just before finishing my final comments below, a small package of keychain LED lights arrived which I ordered 4 weeks and 6 days ago.) Sometimes that's ok if it's a cheap gadget I don't need in a timely fashion (keychain LED lights being a perfect example), but for most th
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4. Returns. Let's say you aren't satisfied with something purchased from a Chinese seller. They say they're happy to refund your money if you return it. Do you know how much it costs to ship a 1-pound package to China? $15 ($16.75 if done from the Post Office). Do you think they're going to reimburse you for that? And that cost is without any kind of tracking, so it wouldn't surprise me to hear that your package never showed up (whether lost or "lost").
Not that simple (Score:2)
First, scale. It moves more product than Amazon and Ebay COMBINED, and that's before even entering the US market. The network effect will dominate.
That doesn't mean a damn thing once a company leaves their home country. Alibaba dominating in China doesn't mean they are assured of any kind of success on the other side of the Pacific. There are innumerable examples of companies that dominate their home markets that struggle in new markets including Walmart, Google, eBay and others. Alibaba might be a great investment and dominate the Chinese market but it isn't remotely certain they will be anywhere near as successful outside of China.
Second the vast majority of what Amazon and (especially!) Ebay sells is made in factories in China anyway.
Demonstrably no
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Honestly not so much. I just checked a few items I've had my eye on and Amazon or ebay are both cheaper, and probably better quality.
IPO prices (Score:3)
> Some critics do say that Alibaba's share price will plummet from its current value of $93.60 in the same way that Facebook's and Twitter's plummeted
The vast majority of IPOs are lower in price 6 months after the issue date. Usually what happens is that company owners have some restrictions on when they can start selling stock - and those are typically 6 months or so. So on the day of initial sale supply is very constrained. Later a lot more shares flood onto the market.
For example Facebook went from $38 to $19.
Purchasing IPOs on day of issuance is a sucker move.
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And yet they are up to $77 (and climbing) now. I'd hardly call them suckers.
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Also, six months from communist China could be in turmoil over one thing or another. Share prices scurry to the ground!
IPO prices (Score:1)
Alibaba actually has revenue, as opposed to Facebook and Twitter's future-revenue based on the number of people visit their website.
Why is Alibaba selling IPO in USA? (Score:5, Interesting)
It's a Chinese company located in China, and most of its business and customers are in China. So why is it doing its IPO on the US stock market?
Shouldn't NYSE/Nazdaq disallow this? SEC and FTC have no jurisdiction in China or anywhere else outside the USA. If a chinese company listed on NYSE did fraudulent accounting or whatever, SEC can't do jack shit about it.
The whole thing seems like a clever scheme by Chinese companies and Goldman Sachs to sucker money out of U.S. investors.
Re:Why is Alibaba selling IPO in USA? (Score:5, Insightful)
Alibaba is doing the IPO in the US because US exchanges will go along with the "sell majority of stock but retain complete control over operations" setup the Alibaba owners wanted to use.
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If a chinese company listed on NYSE did fraudulent accounting or whatever, SEC can't do jack shit about it.
Realistically, by the time the SEC gets around to doing anything, the money is already long gone (Enron, Madoff, etc).
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IMHO, if you read the ra ra stuff (sell direct from China, network effect, economy of scale, etc) it looks like a great stock. But if you're a nervous nellie like me the Chinese accounting and muddled ownership make me think of Monty Python's RUN AWAY RUN AWAY.
Cramer loves BABA, interesting to see whe
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China has a closed capital account, putting all kinds of limitations on businesses. All those yuan they get from listing in China is hard to exchange to other currencies, which they want for future expansion. The USD they collect now, they can however quite easily channel back into China as "foreign investment".
Also note that in fact Alibaba first looked at the Hong Kong stock market for listing. Again outside of China, but a lot closer to home. They were rejected by the Hong Kong board, as they could not f
Re:Why is Alibaba selling IPO in USA? (Score:5, Interesting)
The whole thing seems like a clever scheme by Chinese companies and Goldman Sachs to sucker money out of U.S. investors.
It is. What do you really own with Alibaba? The websites? No.
What's really for sale: [cnn.com] When investors buy Alibaba, they are actually purchasing shares in a Cayman Islands entity called Alibaba Group Holding Limited.
But that company -- surprise! -- doesn't actually own Alibaba. Instead, Ma and another co-founder, Simon Xie, own most of Alibaba's biggest businesses according to Chinese law. Ma and Xie are then under contract to turn profits over to the Cayman entity.
The arrangement is called a variable interest entity (VIE), and is necessary to get around China's strict foreign investment rules. But investors should be aware of the structure -- especially since Chinese courts have not clarified the legality of the arrangement.
Voting rights and control in the company? No. [economist.com]
So what the fuck do you actually own? Hope and promises. My ex-wife gave me those.
P.S. Even the Hong Kong stock exchange spurned Alibaba. [bloomberg.com]
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I know I can't believe this facts are being so under reported myself. The Alibaba management or the Chinese government (which probably could no matter what) is basically able to do just about anything they want and completely screw the investors who will be left with essentially no recourse legal or otherwise.
Its crazy to get into this deal where equity investors have essentially no rights or claim.
The cynic in me thinks the institutional guys buying up this IPO know this perfectly well and plan to unload
Re:Why is Alibaba selling IPO in USA? (Score:5, Interesting)
As far as why this is allowed, it is a lot of money. The banks and firms who are managing the IPO are US and will make a lot of money. The persons and firms who are allowed to buy or are given the stocks will make a lot of money when they resell the stock, either immediately, or in a few months when principles are allowed to resell stock.
It seems that the sale is on shaky ground, given that the Chinese government can likely do any number of things to make the shell company worthless. I think what some may be hoping is that the Alibaba can quickly expand out of china and preserve value as a worldwide conglomerate type thing. At a basic level this is further indication that there is a lot of capital out there, and for some reason the people who have it think it is better to risk it on the occasional potential high return scheme than use it to build long term infrastructure. I guess no matter how much money one have, one always is susceptible to a get rich quick scheme,
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Yes. This.
They've also already lost value (about 10% from when they opened). How is that a good deal?
It's just China trying to sucker punch the economy in the US and leech off more funds.
How indeed, does the SEC allow this. :(
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Well first off, it should ri
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I believe their Holding cie is located in Cayman Islands not China.
Not really buying Alibaba (Score:5, Informative)
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Re: Not really buying Alibaba (Score:1)
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Considering how Europe currently has problems getting rid of its food (due to the Russia embargo), I doubt they'd be all too unhappy to step in should the US decide to stop feeding China.
The less you understand it... (Score:3)
The less you understand the company, the more attractive it is. I suspect the opacity of its operations are a draw.
I remember the tech bubble: "Two guys with a server and a dream" could make millions (on paper). If they cashed out quickly enough, they could turn it into currency.
IPO wasted nearly $10B (Score:5, Interesting)
The IPO also wasted nearly $10B considering that the issue price was $68 and it started trading at $95. I just can't understand the logic behind the IPO mechanism. The purpose of an IPO is to raise as much capital as possible for a company to enable it to grow. However, 41% of the IPO value didn't go to the company; it went to lottery-winning middle men who were given shares for $68 and immediately flipped them to the open market.
An IPO should operate like a Dutch auction, with company having a trading account loaded with all of the IPO shares and starting sale for at a high valuation like $200 and then ticking down 1% every minute that "too few" shares are sold. This maximizes the haul for the IPO company by not squandering billions of dollars on bank insiders.
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I just can't understand the logic behind the IPO mechanism. This IPO [is] squandering billions of dollars on bank insiders.
Your confusion is reduced if you skip the rest of what you wrote.
Who determines the IPO price? The underwriters. They just made $10B, which will more than offset the $2B in fines and no admission of wrong doing the next CEO makes in five, ten or fifteen years when the trial is finally settled.
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My point is that it should be The Market that determines the IPO price(s), not the necessarily incompetent and corrupt Central Planners. You'd think these guys ever heard of a little thing called the Free Market and the regulators would have an obligation to ensure that a Free Market is provided to the public?
It's inflation (Score:4, Insightful)
.
It is the same reason that Hollywood always touts dollar amount of ticket sales and not the number of tickets sold. With the ever increasing ticket prices, ticket sales will always increase, even if the number of ticket sales remains the same. If you take into account inflation [boxofficemojo.com], Gone With The Wind (1939) is the largest grossing movie.
IPOs are subject to a similar inflationary hype. This is the same Wall Street that crashed the world economy a few years back. They want to make it appear as if everyone is farting sunshine and rainbows so Main Street will start sending money to Wall Street once again.
Be afraid, be very afraid.
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If you take into account inflation [boxofficemojo.com], Gone With The Wind (1939) is the largest grossing movie.
As that's so long time ago, you may even have to take into account the population at large. Selling 1,000 tickets to a population 10,000 in size is much more impressive than slling the same number of tickets in a population 1,000,000 in size. Plus of course the lack of competition by television or more recent developments such as The Pirate Bay.
Tech IPO's or something more? (Score:2)
It really seems like pretty much any tech IPO is going to be huge, even though history shows that most of the recent ones (last 20 years) are bad investments. Is Wall Street really just packing so much extra cash that they have nothing better to invest in than a Chinese company with no actual presence in the US? This whole thing just seems crazy to me.
US trade deficit (Score:2)
People will flock to buy stuff and invest in this company which markets and sells goods manufactured almost exclusively in China and then have the nerve to complain about the US foreign trade deficit. We the stupid, blind and thoughtless Americans, brought it upon ourselves, and continue to do so, all the while blaming it on Obama, Congress or whatever other fool is in office. We get what we deserve I guess...
POV of the Discussion (Score:1)
You mean: Why a fake shell company in the Caymans (Score:1)
will be the biggest IPO ever in the US and prove the SEC and the rest of the goverment is a sham.
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Because china big market (Score:1)
Aliexpress (Score:2)
The prices are not that different to those offered by ebay sellers (usually the same). Ebay accepts Paypal, Aliexpress doesn't. Although they have an ill reputed escrow service.
Aliexpress selers have a lot of things you can't buy on ebay. It's great for buying knockoffs. I used it to be Gameboy and NES clone.
It's very popular with women, who use it to buy cosmetics at very low prices (probably fake brands).
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How hard is it to cash out? (Score:2)
The entire deal reeks. A holding company in the Caymens associated with a company in a foreign land with profits which may or may not meet accounting standards. The only people dumb enough to take that play would those who cant lose, like banks.
not the same (Score:2)
"... even than Visa's ($17.9 billion), Facebook's ($16 billion), and General Motors ($15.8 billion)"
A payment method, a time waster and a 'products that kill you' company.
Here you can actually buy stuff, and lots of it has free shipping, may it be to Ouagadougou, Timbuktu or Buttfuck, Idaho.
You know, useful.
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Re: The little guy. (Score:1)
Anyone can buy share in an IPO, that's pretty much the definition of what it is.
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Yes alibaba is a theives market. Alibaba does little to root this out too. Moreover the entire china small items trade competiveness relys on the rediculous postage rates (low) that allows delivery in the US for a mere $1 worth of postage. Finally all the small vendors lie about the item in the postage to evade customs charges.
Amazon could make great noises and will.
On the other hand who owns Alibaba's 120 billion? Americans now. If the congress sicks their dogs on ALibaba it's the same as pilfering 12
US investors don't own Alibaba the retailer ... (Score:5, Informative)
On the other hand who owns Alibaba's 120 billion? Americans now.
US investors don't own Alibaba, the Chinese retail giant. Chinese law doesn't allow foreigners to own a Chinese strategic asset. What US investors are buying is interest in a Cayman Island “variable-interest entity”. Stockholders won't have the usual influence on corporate governance or management.
http://www.marketwatch.com/sto... [marketwatch.com]
Re:US investors don't own Alibaba the retailer ... (Score:5, Funny)
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Yes alibaba is a theives market. Alibaba does little to root this out too. Moreover the entire china small items trade competiveness relys on the rediculous postage rates (low) that allows delivery in the US for a mere $1 worth of postage. Finally all the small vendors lie about the item in the postage to evade customs charges.
The same happens when I buy on eBay or Amazon Marketplace.
Lot's of Chinese vendors there that ship from China.
Also, US vendors lie on the customs sticker as well, if they care to put that information on a package at all.
I live in Germany and I order from all around the world, Every time I need to go to the customs offices to pick up a package because it was not declared properly it's a package from the US or Australia.
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Also, US vendors lie on the customs sticker as well
I am glad they do. Many US shippers (as well as shippers from other countries) are happy enough to fiddle the declared value or shipping charges a little. Which helps: import duty is paid over the full amount (value + postage), and declaring either a little lower may bring you under the threshold above which tax is due.
By the way, I am ok with paying import duties. I am not ok with the processing of said duties taking upwards of 2 weeks suring which the shipment is held, and the post charging me an ad
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Yes alibaba is a theives market.
Well D'uh! Ali Baba is a famous fictional leader of thieves.
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If he actually cares about decent hard working Americans he saves Amazon because Amazon investors at least own the company and Amazon is a US company providing a useful potentially profitable service.
Alibaba investors on the other hand are Wall Street gamblers who don't actually own anything other than some moon beam and unicorn promises that Alibaba really will distribute its profits to the Cayman islands company they actually own. That also presupposes the Chinese government won't just decide the whole a
Re: Alibaba's AliExpress store is ripe with fakes (Score:2)
To be fair, I don't see how Alibaba has anything to do with Amazon. One is a legitimate vendor who has built a highly lucrative business model with sustained growth. The other is basically a swap shop site which most sane consumers would never consider typing a credit card number into. I have tried purchasing t
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Sorry, no pity toward those investors. They knowingly invested in a criminal venture. They deserve not only to lose their money but to be in prison.
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Way to play the victim card.
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Wow. Did you buy a lot of shares that you are trying to offload? Why the love of Alibaba and/or US bashing?
1. Alibaba is huge in China, but tiny in other markets. This is not a truly global operation.
2. So?
3. So?
4. See 2.
5. If you must know, the HK exchange refused to let them list.
6. Favor? For f***s sake, favor?? HK refused. Goldman gives big institutions very sweet terms and like a whore screws anyone for her pimp (in this case, Alibaba). They probably raised more money than they could in any oth
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'cause it's the same cheap crap that you pay lots of money otherwise just 'cause it has a silly picture and/or a certain name on it?