Monkey jokes aside, why ban it? Why not just file the picture under the normal, changeable, filter? There's still freedom of speech and I can easily google the KKK website. Unpleasant for some, yes, but that's the flip side of avoiding censorship (as opposed to user enacted filtering).
My thoughts exactly. I fully agree the image is in bad taste, but Google can't be held responsible for it, and they shouldn't feel responsible for it. Go blame the guy who put it on his website.
I agree completely. However, I'd guess it's just a political move. People are largely unable to distinguish Google from the internet at large (particularly when it's in the form of Google representing trends that aren't easily observable to anyone who doesn't, say, have an extra copy of the net kicking around). So they blame Google when the internet contains something they don't like, hence Google tries to avoid it.
Just my $0.02.
don't just blame it on the guy who posted it, but also Google works on natural search. Blame the millions of people who searched for this picture using those keywords. This image coming up first just shows how racist americans still are. I say Google should have let it be. As disgusting as it is it represents a group of people in this period of history. You can't erase it like the Germans are trying to do with the Nazi history.
And for those morons who are comparing this to George Bush's monkey, you all ar
I mean it in the sense that anything Nazi related is banned including video games and movies where Nazi's are the enemy. A video game with Nazi's as the enemy will not change a person to join the Nazi party, but the German gov't seems to think so.
I mean it in the sense that anything Nazi related is banned including video games and movies where Nazi's are the enemy. A video game with Nazi's as the enemy will not change a person to join the Nazi party, but the German gov't seems to think so.
It's not fighting the nazis that's forbidden, it's showing nazi symbolism. An empty and stupid gesture, I admit, but it's definitely not about protecting or hiding nazis. Apparently they think symbols are important to nazis (and to some extend they are).
I fully agree the image is in bad taste, but Google can't be held responsible for it, and they shouldn't feel responsible for it. Go blame the guy who put it on his website.
The fact that Google chose to do something proves that they do feel it has an impact on their brand image, which they are quite rightly protecting by responding to complaints.
It's the same principle as when lots of advertisers here in the UK either threatened to or actually did cancel ads with the Daily Mail following whatsername's u
Actually it can. If when you Google Image someone's name, the first picture that appears is an unpleasant caricature then I'm no lawyer but it sounds good enough to sue them for defamation of character. Because of course there's going to be unpleasant caricatures of public persons, but if one of them is the first result, if it comes before any legitimate depiction, then the problem comes from you, and you'd better fix it.
Actually it can. If when you Google Image someone's name, the first picture that appears is an unpleasant caricature then I'm no lawyer but it sounds good enough to sue them for defamation of character. Because of course there's going to be unpleasant caricatures of public persons, but if one of them is the first result, if it comes before any legitimate depiction, then the problem comes from you, and you'd better fix it.
Wrong wrong wrong.
If you are running an algorithm and the result of that algorithm are
. If when you Google Image someone's name, the first picture that appears is an unpleasant caricature then I'm no lawyer but it sounds good enough to sue them for defamation of character.
Bullshit. You'd have to prove that google had a hand in making the monkey pics highly ranked instead of just applying a neutral algorithm and showing what was popular at the time. You sue ATT when someone yells at you over the phone?
That said, it wasn't a very good search result. If I'm searching for "Michelle Obama" I don't want to doctored photos of Michelle Obama, I want actual photos. I'll search for "Michelle Obama photoshop" or "Michelle Obama ape" if that is the result I want.
by Anonymous Coward writes:
on Thursday November 26, 2009 @05:45AM (#30235168)
Looks like they did. Searching with SafeSearch off, 'michelle obama' returns relatively normal stuff, 'michelle obama monkey' shows it as the second result, and with moderate SafeSearch, 'michelle obama ape', the query _linked from the cnn article_, shows it as the first result, so it's definitely still there on Google.
The original blogger took it down. The first mirror that shot it right back in to 1st place took it down, and then it left google's page rank caching for the 'Michelle Obama' query. Are we actually sure that Google did ANYTHING here? They might have marked the image offensive, which would [I assume, I know nothing of google's search results rankings] hide it from people with strict safesearch on, and severely downrank it on moderate and no safesearch results.
Are we actually sure that Google did ANYTHING here? They might have marked the image offensive, which would [I assume, I know nothing of google's search results rankings] hide it from people with strict safesearch on, and severely downrank it on moderate and no safesearch results.
Good point. Deserves a point or two from anybody slinging them around, AC or not.
I agree that as incredibly offensive as it is, it is absolutely a protected form of political speech in as much as it is commentary (no matter how obscene and juvenile) about a celebrity, public figure, de facto political figure. Meanwhile, the every day person has to put up with actual libel on the internet that is not in any way merely a form of "free speech" or "political commentary" and there's no recourse for them - through Google or otherwise.
It seems to me, then, that the best thing they could have d
George Bush and Michelle Obama are BOTH apes. Not only do they appear to be apes in pictures, but they appear to be apes in person, because that's what they are.
Hmm, the update to/. summary is interesting. The picture got pulled by the blogger and a bi-lingual apology was posted. The Chinese characters are the simplified text, so the person is probably from mainland China. Assuming it's not faked, then things get more interesting.
Has that person ever lived in the US?
How would they be familiar with our cultural ethnic sensitivities?
Do we disparage them for being crude or praise them for freedom of speech under their current (Assumed communist) government?
You're absolutely right, but fail to take in to consideration that Americans don't like the idea of censorship in general. Various groups will have their exceptions to that, such as pornography, but the principle of anti-censorship pretty much stands, government or not.
That's because he's an idiot who behaves like a monkey. It wasn't racist, which is very different. If you think that Michelle Obama is an idiot, fine, but find another way to express that can't be misinterpreted along racial grounds.
Isn't it just as racist that some insults are ok towards whites and off-limits towards blacks? The whole PR/racist discussion (pro AND con) is racist. It doesn't matter which side you are on. If you see the need to take either side, you discriminate people by race.
Isn't it just as racist that some insults are ok towards whites and off-limits towards blacks?
No, obviously not. Likening Michelle Obama to a monkey is insulting her because she is black, and is therefore racist. Likening Bush to a monkey is not insulting him because he is white, and so is not racist.
If you see the need to take either side, you discriminate people by race.
This is, of course, bullshit. Being aware that people are assigned to different races, and treated differently because of this, is not racism, it's the first step in getting rid of racism. Pretending race doesn't exist, on the other hand, is just a way of pretending that racism doesn't exist, and so wil
by Anonymous Coward writes:
on Thursday November 26, 2009 @06:50AM (#30235528)
Wow.
Likening a person to a monkey is insulting, I don't care what race you are. Likening Bush to a monkey isn't racism, I'll agree to that, but likening Michelle Obama to a monkey isn't either. Likening Michelle Obama because she is black to a monkey because people think black people look like monkeys is racist. It's the intent of the portrayal, not the portrayal itself. This isn't uncommon in thought or in law. If I accidentally hit someone with my car and they die, I can be charged with manslaughter. If I intentionally stalk someone and wait for that person to cross the street just so I can hit them with my car, that's murder. Same thing here. I can portray anyone I choose as a monkey, if it's done because they look like a monkey, or I'm making a comparison to something overly simian in their character or actions. If Michelle Obama throws her arm over her head and scratches herself and goes 'ook ook', am I allowed to photoshop her as a monkey then? At what point does it go from immediately racist to people thinking "Wait, maybe everyone ISN'T as racist as I am, and not everything done with a minority as a subject is racist?"
Your second statement is just utterly ridiculous. To paraphrase: "It's not racist to define different protections in the categories of freedom of speech based on people's skin color. Segregation of discrimination is the first step in getting rid of racism. Everyone getting along and realizing race doesn't matter at all will perpetuate racism forever." I wanted to put the word 'pretending' in the last sentence, but sarcasm-deficient people probably would pounce on me for it. Brilliant word there, imagine this sentence: "Pretending everyone can get along and race just doesn't matter at all will perpetuate racism forever." It's true, pretending that will keep racism around, since you're just pretending. Believing it and acting like it is really the final step to getting rid of racism. Perhaps some of us are doing better than you are at not lying to ourselves, and actually aren't racist, instead of your "first amendment separate but equal, segregated zones of thought and criticism" brand of "non-racism".
Everyone getting along and realizing race doesn't matter at all will perpetuate racism forever.
But race does matter, so you can't "realize" that it doesn't matter, any more than you can "realize" that the moon is made of cheese - all you can do is pretend. If you act like race doesn't matter, you can't recognize the existence of racism, and so you can't do anything to overcome racism.
I agree. If we as a society are ever to overcome racial biases and discrimination, this is the attitude we need to have. A race-neutral attitude... Is that really so hard?
No, obviously not. Likening Michelle Obama to a monkey is insulting her because she is black, and is therefore racist. Likening Bush to a monkey is not insulting him because he is white, and so is not racist.
So, what you are saying is that because Michelle Obama is black, she is closer to being a monkey than a non-black? That in itself sounds quite racist.
This is, of course, bullshit. Being aware that people are assigned to different races, and treated differently because of this, is not racism, it's the first step in getting rid of racism. Pretending race doesn't exist, on the other hand, is just a way of pretending that racism doesn't exist, and so will inevitably perpetuate it.
Picking and choosing what racism is leads to situations whereby innocent people are attacked, lose their jobs, and are branded pariahs because of a popularist opinion. Intent doesn't matter.
Let's consider the act of children. Often they tease one another. They tease about your funny-sounding last name. They tease about your father's profession. They tease about your weight or lack of weight. They tease about your private body parts or the way you move. They tease about your intelligence or lack thereof. They tease about your hair style. They tease about your skin colour (even when you're burnt or pale).
Now let's consider the act of adults. They can tease about stupidity. They can tease about money. They can tease about weight. They can tease about accents and behaviour. They can tease about looks. They can tease about names. Except if that person is from a racial background that refuses to accept criticism.
So what's the resulting behaviour? Avoid certain races in the workplace. They might sue you for racism regardless of the intent. Avoid certain races in the street. They might attack you then claim you incited racial hatred.
At the end of the day anybody who says that one person is entitled to being treated differently to another on the base of race is a racist.
There comes a time when society as a whole should become sick of popularist definitions of racism and just embrace the title.
or how about, as adults, we have a responsibility to have learnt the difference between teasing someone in a way that is acceptable to them and fun, versus being offensive whatever guise that might take. The difference between being an adult and being a child is that as a child you are learning what is acceptable in life through experience, it's part of growing up.
Somewhere along the line kids should learn to treat other people with respect, and not tease them unless they have an appropriate relationship
Like adults, let us think rationally about each point and consider it on its merits (or lack thereof). I'm not sure if your examples of teasing were condoning the behaviour or just saying that it happens.
They can tease about stupidity.
As long as the stupidity isn't caused by mental illness or a disability I'm fine with this. People ought to be lifelong learners and attempt to improve their intelligence and wisdom.
Likening Michelle Obama to a monkey is insulting her because she is black, and is therefore racist.
Only if you believe that black people *are* like monkeys. Do you believe that ? Are you a racist ? When Darwin published his seminal work, he was caricatured in the press as a monkey. Was that racist or because he was white it can't have been ? It's an insult, sure, but dragging race specificity into it is only prolonging racism. Complain about the insult all you like, but don't pretend it's more than that unl
Likening Michelle Obama to a monkey is insulting her because she is black, and is therefore racist. Likening Bush to a monkey is not insulting him because he is white, and so is not racist.
You're a moron. The original picture was posted on a website dedicated to posting pictures of celebrities made to look like apes. The fact that all these white people can be ridiculed in that fashion while a black person can't is just a side effect of overcompensation for political correctness. Unless the author of the picture included something along the lines of "hur hur dum nigra looks like a munky" then any racist interpretation is necessarily brought to the table by YOU.
Bush was portrayed as monkey too. Who are we to say it was not a black person who did both? The point I am wanting to make is that we assume all this is always done a person of white color and therefore automatically racist. It may be insulting, but it is only the fear of not being politically correct makes us believe it is racist. If you want an enlightening view on this, watch Russell Peters.
All I am waiting for now is the having the whole lineage of US presidents to have their monkey portraits, so everyo
Likening Bush to a monkey is not insulting him because he is white, and so is not racist.
Well that is a preposterous statement. I'm of the opinion that comparing any human being to a monkey is an insult to that person's mental capabilities. Whether or not it is also racist is a separate dimension of the insult, but fundamentally calling anyone a monkey is an insult. I might be wrong, but I think that those who called Bush a monkey were not using that word to make a factual statement about his biological mak
Isn't it just as racist that some insults are ok towards whites and off-limits towards blacks?
No, obviously not. Likening Michelle Obama to a monkey is insulting her because she is black, and is therefore racist. Likening Bush to a monkey is not insulting him because he is white, and so is not racist.
Only if you think black (personally I'd say she's coloured, she's not dark skinned enough to be black) people are somehow like monkeys. Were you trying to be sarcastic?
>No, obviously not. Likening Michelle Obama to a monkey is insulting her because she is black, and is therefore racist. Likening Bush to a monkey is not insulting him because he is white, and so is not racist.
Amazing that one of the dumbest things I've ever read in my life get +5 insightful!!!!!
So, acording to you, if a black person calls me "monkey" and I reply "you are the monkey", I am committing a hate crime and he is just insulting me. Is that so? Good Lord!
This is, of course, bullshit. Being aware that people are assigned to different races, and treated differently because of this, is not racism, it's the first step in getting rid of racism. Pretending race doesn't exist, on the other hand, is just a way of pretending that racism doesn't exist, and so will inevitably perpetuate it.
I don't pretend that race or racism does not exist. But, IMHO, neither needs to exist. Human DNA has lots of variables. Certain groupings of these variables happen to be collected in historical regions of the world. That's what gives rise to the notion of race. But this is just something we created; it has no substantial meaning to the human species any more than any other collective grouping of human variables we might devise.
Race exists. But it's unimportant. The sooner we understand that, the soon
"Pretending race doesn't exist, on the other hand, is just a way of pretending that racism doesn't exist, and so will inevitably perpetuate it."
Wrong. Pretending race doesn't exist does nothing to solve the problem, but it also does nothing to perpetuate it. In fact if everyone in the world pretended that race didn't exist we'd have a society indistinguishable from one where no one recognizes race.
"No, obviously not. Likening Michelle Obama to a monkey is insulting her because she is black, and is therefore
No, obviously not. Likening Michelle Obama to a monkey is insulting her because she is black, and is therefore racist. Likening Bush to a monkey is not insulting him because he is white, and so is not racist
Reluctantly, I googled for possible copies of the offending image, and came up short. Before replying to you, I would have liked to gauge for myself how blatantly racist the image is.
Let me break this down:
* The picture caricatures Michelle Obama as a monkey
* Michelle Obama is black
* Therefore, the creator of the image was racially motivated to insult her with that caricature.
Do you not see the HUGE assumption that exists between those premises, and your conclusion? That assumption might be occasi
I see, so we should change what we say and how we express ourselves depending on the racial composition of the group we are in.
Sounds wonderfully progressive. Perhaps, some day, we may even set up separate facilities for those of different racial backgrounds, so that all may feel free and comfortable amongst those to whom they can express themselves freely!
I find your ideas intriguing and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.
Maybe we should also create separate areas where the different races could sit in public transport, so we
don't risk the discomfort and mental anguish of not being able to express ourself freely.
Oh oh oh, and we could also create these camps where special races could be relocated to for the safety of primarily, of course, themselves and secondarily the nation.
Would these camps have a high concentration of people in them? I want to know, because I have marketing on the phone, and they're looking for a catchy name.
Would these camps have a high concentration of people in them? I want to know, because I have marketing on the phone, and they're looking for a catchy name.
Yes. Your marketing department may also be interested to know that, while inte... er... concentrated in the camps, those people would be provided all means to keep themselves in shape - such as healthy and challenging labor.
Yes. Your marketing department may also be interested to know that, while inte... er... concentrated in the camps, those people would be provided all means to keep themselves in shape - such as healthy and challenging labor.
Would this labour free them in some way? I'm also looking for a tagline for the German market.
Now if you had a time machine you could just travel back to my country (South Africa) 40 years ago and "enjoy" all that crackpot shit without bothering anyone.
I see, so we should change what we say and how we express ourselves depending on the racial composition of the group we are in.
Yes. I have a great joke about sudden infant death syndrome, and a friend who los a little sister to it - I do not use that joke when he is around. I have acquaintances in wheelchairs, who know the best jokes about their condition - but I will not presume that is OK to repeat them in front of any wheel-chair-bound person I meet.
Of course you should think about what you are saying, based on who you are with. Comparing Bush to a monkey brings up thoughts of stupidity, comparing Michelle Obama brings up racist
... but find another way to express that can't be misinterpreted along racial grounds.
Either you're really naive, or you've hit the nail on the head. Calling a black person a monkey is indeed racist, but maybe that's not the connotation intended. Misinterpreted indeed.
Yeah, because that makes pointless criticism by dumb idiots somehow better then.
You know what I think? It’s more you interpreting everything as racism. You wouldn’t have though about the racism if you weren’t searching for it.
I bet Michelle Obama actually stands over such irrelevant shit.
I mean we’re grown ups. Let people draw a towel on my head and a bomb on my chest. That says something about them. Not something about me. Since they don’t know shit about me, and everybody kno
Wait, what do monkeys have to do with race? Is it because she's black and therefore anything said against her must be viewed through the lens of racism?
Interesting so it is more offensive to make a reference to race than to call a person an idiot? It is so offensive that it should be censored? I know people that find flag burning extremely offensive. So should that be banned? Frankly I find calling Bush an idiot to be pretty offensive because it is insulting to him personally and demeaning to the people that voted for him. I also find the image of Michelle Obama extremely offensive. She isn't an elected official, she seems like a very pleasant and intelligent
I see that the Politically Correct Police has mod points today. And, like the cowards they are, they used "Overrated" to avoid metamoderation. Help, I'm being suppressed! The Man is trying to keep me down! Mutha Fuckas!
Yes, because comparing a president's intellect to that of a monkey is exactly the same as a racist comparison of the president's wife to the physical appearance of a monkey. I know it might be nice to live in a little vacuum world in which nothing has any context, but certain things in our society are very loaded, even if when broken down, they should not be.
I think the truly sad thing here is how the first lady gets something like this wiped from the internet (more or less) while every other person who isn
Search engine's shouldn't be responsible for the information they turn up. The people who should be ashamed of themselves are the people posting the images, not Google. It sets a dangerous precedent for censorship, and gives credibility to criticisms of media bias.
I'm personally of the opinion that showing M. Obama as a monkey is racially motivated, but I'm willing to grant that it's not black and white (ha ha). Even if it were... Even if it was a picture of M. Ob
I'm personally of the opinion that showing M. Obama as a monkey is racially motivated
Does anyone know the original source of the image? Do we even know that it wasn't just the product of a bored/b/tard with a warezed copy of Photoshop who saw the picture of Obama and thought "I think I'll piss off some people today!"
I'm personally of the opinion that showing M. Obama as a monkey is racially motivated
Does anyone know the original source of the image? Do we even know that it wasn't just the product of a bored/b/tard with a warezed copy of Photoshop who saw the picture of Obama and thought "I think I'll piss off some people today!"
The source for this image is a now defunct site called celebrityapes.com (misspelled on at least one referring site). I visited the site 2 days ago after correcting the spelling and before it went down. It had pictures of dozens of celebrities, most not black, done to look like apes. Check the Internet Archive for this site and you will see it includes Bill and Hilary Clinton,
Katie Holmes, Martin Scorsese and Mariah Carey.
You are joking, right? There were many complaints and objections to the various monkeyfied images of George W. Bush. I remember hearing one talk radio host saying that he wanted to charge the people responsible with treason.
And, no one complained when Barack Obama was made to look like a monkey. Do a little research on Google images. Try "George Bush", "Barack Obama", and "Laura Bush". The problem is not that they are attacking a black president. I did not see a single picture of Barack on the first page of results that wasn't a monkey. The problem is that they are racially attacking a first lady, which most Americans think is in bad taste (since she is not elected and has no official power so is not a straight up politic
We're talking about Michelle Obama, so compare it to Laura Bush.
If it was President Obama himself, it may be a hotter topic, but more acceptable as critisism or free speech. Michelle, seemingly, has done nothing to provoke the "attack."
It is similar to the Clinton's request that Chelsea be removed from the crosshairs of social scrutiny.
How would this shake out if it was the Obama's children that were subject to it?
If you can't see that the Obama picture was racially charged, and the Bush one was not, well, there is no hope for you.
Of course you posted anonymously. Coward.
Well actually a lot of people complained....but no one did anything about it because it was' free speech' but with 'change' came 'hate speech' the NEW free speech.
African-Americans have voted in a much larger percentage for the Democratic party since the civil rights era. That whole time they were voting for white politicians.
Frankly, your entire premise here is ignorant bullshit. Going by your logic every white person is a racist, if they've only voted for white politicians like John Sidney McCain.
First post (Score:5, Insightful)
No one complained when Bush was made to look a monkey
Re:First post (Score:5, Funny)
Re:First post (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:First post (Score:5, Insightful)
Monkey jokes aside, why ban it?
My thoughts exactly. I fully agree the image is in bad taste, but Google can't be held responsible for it, and they shouldn't feel responsible for it. Go blame the guy who put it on his website.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
And for those morons who are comparing this to George Bush's monkey, you all ar
Re: (Score:2)
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You can't erase it like the Germans are trying to do with the Nazi history.
Er, what? The Germans aren't trying to erase it, they're trying to fix it. They take their Nazi history very seriously, there.
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I mean it in the sense that anything Nazi related is banned including video games and movies where Nazi's are the enemy. A video game with Nazi's as the enemy will not change a person to join the Nazi party, but the German gov't seems to think so.
It's not fighting the nazis that's forbidden, it's showing nazi symbolism. An empty and stupid gesture, I admit, but it's definitely not about protecting or hiding nazis. Apparently they think symbols are important to nazis (and to some extend they are).
Re: (Score:2)
The fact that Google chose to do something proves that they do feel it has an impact on their brand image, which they are quite rightly protecting by responding to complaints.
It's the same principle as when lots of advertisers here in the UK either threatened to or actually did cancel ads with the Daily Mail following whatsername's u
Re: (Score:2)
Google can't be held responsible for it
Actually it can. If when you Google Image someone's name, the first picture that appears is an unpleasant caricature then I'm no lawyer but it sounds good enough to sue them for defamation of character. Because of course there's going to be unpleasant caricatures of public persons, but if one of them is the first result, if it comes before any legitimate depiction, then the problem comes from you, and you'd better fix it.
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Actually it can. If when you Google Image someone's name, the first picture that appears is an unpleasant caricature then I'm no lawyer but it sounds good enough to sue them for defamation of character. Because of course there's going to be unpleasant caricatures of public persons, but if one of them is the first result, if it comes before any legitimate depiction, then the problem comes from you, and you'd better fix it.
Wrong wrong wrong.
If you are running an algorithm and the result of that algorithm are
Re: (Score:2)
. If when you Google Image someone's name, the first picture that appears is an unpleasant caricature then I'm no lawyer but it sounds good enough to sue them for defamation of character.
Bullshit. You'd have to prove that google had a hand in making the monkey pics highly ranked instead of just applying a neutral algorithm and showing what was popular at the time. You sue ATT when someone yells at you over the phone?
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That said, it wasn't a very good search result. If I'm searching for "Michelle Obama" I don't want to doctored photos of Michelle Obama, I want actual photos. I'll search for "Michelle Obama photoshop" or "Michelle Obama ape" if that is the result I want.
Re:First post (Score:5, Informative)
Looks like they did. Searching with SafeSearch off, 'michelle obama' returns relatively normal stuff, 'michelle obama monkey' shows it as the second result, and with moderate SafeSearch, 'michelle obama ape', the query _linked from the cnn article_, shows it as the first result, so it's definitely still there on Google.
The original blogger took it down. The first mirror that shot it right back in to 1st place took it down, and then it left google's page rank caching for the 'Michelle Obama' query. Are we actually sure that Google did ANYTHING here? They might have marked the image offensive, which would [I assume, I know nothing of google's search results rankings] hide it from people with strict safesearch on, and severely downrank it on moderate and no safesearch results.
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Are we actually sure that Google did ANYTHING here? They might have marked the image offensive, which would [I assume, I know nothing of google's search results rankings] hide it from people with strict safesearch on, and severely downrank it on moderate and no safesearch results.
Good point. Deserves a point or two from anybody slinging them around, AC or not.
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I agree that as incredibly offensive as it is, it is absolutely a protected form of political speech in as much as it is commentary (no matter how obscene and juvenile) about a celebrity, public figure, de facto political figure. Meanwhile, the every day person has to put up with actual libel on the internet that is not in any way merely a form of "free speech" or "political commentary" and there's no recourse for them - through Google or otherwise.
It seems to me, then, that the best thing they could have d
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I agree that as incredibly offensive
How so? Comparing public figures to animals is pretty common. I've seen GWB pictured as an ape several times - how is this different.
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George Bush and Michelle Obama are BOTH apes. Not only do they appear to be apes in pictures, but they appear to be apes in person, because that's what they are.
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Has that person ever lived in the US?
How would they be familiar with our cultural ethnic sensitivities?
Do we disparage them for being crude or praise them for freedom of speech under their current (Assumed communist) government?
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That's because he's an idiot who behaves like a monkey. It wasn't racist, which is very different. If you think that Michelle Obama is an idiot, fine, but find another way to express that can't be misinterpreted along racial grounds.
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Isn't it just as racist that some insults are ok towards whites and off-limits towards blacks? The whole PR/racist discussion (pro AND con) is racist. It doesn't matter which side you are on. If you see the need to take either side, you discriminate people by race.
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Isn't it just as racist that some insults are ok towards whites and off-limits towards blacks?
No, obviously not. Likening Michelle Obama to a monkey is insulting her because she is black, and is therefore racist. Likening Bush to a monkey is not insulting him because he is white, and so is not racist.
If you see the need to take either side, you discriminate people by race.
This is, of course, bullshit. Being aware that people are assigned to different races, and treated differently because of this, is not racism, it's the first step in getting rid of racism. Pretending race doesn't exist, on the other hand, is just a way of pretending that racism doesn't exist, and so wil
Re:First post (Score:5, Insightful)
Wow.
Likening a person to a monkey is insulting, I don't care what race you are. Likening Bush to a monkey isn't racism, I'll agree to that, but likening Michelle Obama to a monkey isn't either. Likening Michelle Obama because she is black to a monkey because people think black people look like monkeys is racist. It's the intent of the portrayal, not the portrayal itself. This isn't uncommon in thought or in law. If I accidentally hit someone with my car and they die, I can be charged with manslaughter. If I intentionally stalk someone and wait for that person to cross the street just so I can hit them with my car, that's murder. Same thing here. I can portray anyone I choose as a monkey, if it's done because they look like a monkey, or I'm making a comparison to something overly simian in their character or actions. If Michelle Obama throws her arm over her head and scratches herself and goes 'ook ook', am I allowed to photoshop her as a monkey then? At what point does it go from immediately racist to people thinking "Wait, maybe everyone ISN'T as racist as I am, and not everything done with a minority as a subject is racist?"
Your second statement is just utterly ridiculous. To paraphrase: "It's not racist to define different protections in the categories of freedom of speech based on people's skin color. Segregation of discrimination is the first step in getting rid of racism. Everyone getting along and realizing race doesn't matter at all will perpetuate racism forever." I wanted to put the word 'pretending' in the last sentence, but sarcasm-deficient people probably would pounce on me for it. Brilliant word there, imagine this sentence: "Pretending everyone can get along and race just doesn't matter at all will perpetuate racism forever." It's true, pretending that will keep racism around, since you're just pretending. Believing it and acting like it is really the final step to getting rid of racism. Perhaps some of us are doing better than you are at not lying to ourselves, and actually aren't racist, instead of your "first amendment separate but equal, segregated zones of thought and criticism" brand of "non-racism".
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Everyone getting along and realizing race doesn't matter at all will perpetuate racism forever.
But race does matter, so you can't "realize" that it doesn't matter, any more than you can "realize" that the moon is made of cheese - all you can do is pretend. If you act like race doesn't matter, you can't recognize the existence of racism, and so you can't do anything to overcome racism.
Mod parent up. (Score:2)
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No, obviously not. Likening Michelle Obama to a monkey is insulting her because she is black, and is therefore racist. Likening Bush to a monkey is not insulting him because he is white, and so is not racist.
So, what you are saying is that because Michelle Obama is black, she is closer to being a monkey than a non-black? That in itself sounds quite racist.
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Monkey fur is closer in color to black human skin than to white human skin. If you don't realize that, well...
As evidenced by this image [wordpress.com]. Not racist at all?
Re:First post (Score:5, Insightful)
This is, of course, bullshit. Being aware that people are assigned to different races, and treated differently because of this, is not racism, it's the first step in getting rid of racism. Pretending race doesn't exist, on the other hand, is just a way of pretending that racism doesn't exist, and so will inevitably perpetuate it.
Picking and choosing what racism is leads to situations whereby innocent people are attacked, lose their jobs, and are branded pariahs because of a popularist opinion. Intent doesn't matter.
Let's consider the act of children. Often they tease one another. They tease about your funny-sounding last name. They tease about your father's profession. They tease about your weight or lack of weight. They tease about your private body parts or the way you move. They tease about your intelligence or lack thereof. They tease about your hair style. They tease about your skin colour (even when you're burnt or pale).
Now let's consider the act of adults. They can tease about stupidity. They can tease about money. They can tease about weight. They can tease about accents and behaviour. They can tease about looks. They can tease about names. Except if that person is from a racial background that refuses to accept criticism.
So what's the resulting behaviour? Avoid certain races in the workplace. They might sue you for racism regardless of the intent. Avoid certain races in the street. They might attack you then claim you incited racial hatred.
At the end of the day anybody who says that one person is entitled to being treated differently to another on the base of race is a racist.
There comes a time when society as a whole should become sick of popularist definitions of racism and just embrace the title.
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Somewhere along the line kids should learn to treat other people with respect, and not tease them unless they have an appropriate relationship
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Like adults, let us think rationally about each point and consider it on its merits (or lack thereof). I'm not sure if your examples of teasing were condoning the behaviour or just saying that it happens.
As long as the stupidity isn't caused by mental illness or a disability I'm fine with this. People ought to be lifelong learners and attempt to improve their intelligence and wisdom.
The only teasing about money
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But... neither of the Obamas are black. Barack is a very pale brown, more of a beige really. Michelle is a much warmer colour verging on amber.
If you want black, go see an Australian bushman. They're really impressive. So dark they're almost blue.
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Only if you believe that black people *are* like monkeys. Do you believe that ? Are you a racist ? When Darwin published his seminal work, he was caricatured in the press as a monkey. Was that racist or because he was white it can't have been ? It's an insult, sure, but dragging race specificity into it is only prolonging racism. Complain about the insult all you like, but don't pretend it's more than that unl
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Likening Michelle Obama to a monkey is insulting her because she is black, and is therefore racist. Likening Bush to a monkey is not insulting him because he is white, and so is not racist.
You're a moron. The original picture was posted on a website dedicated to posting pictures of celebrities made to look like apes. The fact that all these white people can be ridiculed in that fashion while a black person can't is just a side effect of overcompensation for political correctness. Unless the author of the picture included something along the lines of "hur hur dum nigra looks like a munky" then any racist interpretation is necessarily brought to the table by YOU.
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Bush was portrayed as monkey too. Who are we to say it was not a black person who did both? The point I am wanting to make is that we assume all this is always done a person of white color and therefore automatically racist. It may be insulting, but it is only the fear of not being politically correct makes us believe it is racist. If you want an enlightening view on this, watch Russell Peters.
All I am waiting for now is the having the whole lineage of US presidents to have their monkey portraits, so everyo
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Likening Bush to a monkey is not insulting him because he is white, and so is not racist.
Well that is a preposterous statement. I'm of the opinion that comparing any human being to a monkey is an insult to that person's mental capabilities. Whether or not it is also racist is a separate dimension of the insult, but fundamentally calling anyone a monkey is an insult. I might be wrong, but I think that those who called Bush a monkey were not using that word to make a factual statement about his biological mak
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Isn't it just as racist that some insults are ok towards whites and off-limits towards blacks?
No, obviously not. Likening Michelle Obama to a monkey is insulting her because she is black, and is therefore racist. Likening Bush to a monkey is not insulting him because he is white, and so is not racist.
Only if you think black (personally I'd say she's coloured, she's not dark skinned enough to be black) people are somehow like monkeys. Were you trying to be sarcastic?
So if you're white racism does not affect you????? (Score:1)
>No, obviously not. Likening Michelle Obama to a monkey is insulting her because she is black, and is therefore racist. Likening Bush to a monkey is not insulting him because he is white, and so is not racist.
Amazing that one of the dumbest things I've ever read in my life get +5 insightful!!!!!
So, acording to you, if a black person calls me "monkey" and I reply "you are the monkey", I am committing a hate crime and he is just insulting me. Is that so? Good Lord!
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This is, of course, bullshit. Being aware that people are assigned to different races, and treated differently because of this, is not racism, it's the first step in getting rid of racism. Pretending race doesn't exist, on the other hand, is just a way of pretending that racism doesn't exist, and so will inevitably perpetuate it.
I don't pretend that race or racism does not exist. But, IMHO, neither needs to exist. Human DNA has lots of variables. Certain groupings of these variables happen to be collected in historical regions of the world. That's what gives rise to the notion of race. But this is just something we created; it has no substantial meaning to the human species any more than any other collective grouping of human variables we might devise.
Race exists. But it's unimportant. The sooner we understand that, the soon
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"Pretending race doesn't exist, on the other hand, is just a way of pretending that racism doesn't exist, and so will inevitably perpetuate it."
Wrong. Pretending race doesn't exist does nothing to solve the problem, but it also does nothing to perpetuate it. In fact if everyone in the world pretended that race didn't exist we'd have a society indistinguishable from one where no one recognizes race.
"No, obviously not. Likening Michelle Obama to a monkey is insulting her because she is black, and is therefore
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No, obviously not. Likening Michelle Obama to a monkey is insulting her because she is black, and is therefore racist. Likening Bush to a monkey is not insulting him because he is white, and so is not racist
Reluctantly, I googled for possible copies of the offending image, and came up short. Before replying to you, I would have liked to gauge for myself how blatantly racist the image is.
Let me break this down:
* The picture caricatures Michelle Obama as a monkey
* Michelle Obama is black
* Therefore, the creator of the image was racially motivated to insult her with that caricature.
Do you not see the HUGE assumption that exists between those premises, and your conclusion? That assumption might be occasi
Re:First post (Score:5, Insightful)
I see, so we should change what we say and how we express ourselves depending on the racial composition of the group we are in.
Sounds wonderfully progressive. Perhaps, some day, we may even set up separate facilities for those of different racial backgrounds, so that all may feel free and comfortable amongst those to whom they can express themselves freely!
Re:First post (Score:5, Funny)
I find your ideas intriguing and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.
Maybe we should also create separate areas where the different races could sit in public transport, so we don't risk the discomfort and mental anguish of not being able to express ourself freely.
Oh oh oh, and we could also create these camps where special races could be relocated to for the safety of primarily, of course, themselves and secondarily the nation.
Re:First post (Score:5, Funny)
Would these camps have a high concentration of people in them? I want to know, because I have marketing on the phone, and they're looking for a catchy name.
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Would these camps have a high concentration of people in them? I want to know, because I have marketing on the phone, and they're looking for a catchy name.
Yes. Your marketing department may also be interested to know that, while inte... er... concentrated in the camps, those people would be provided all means to keep themselves in shape - such as healthy and challenging labor.
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Yes. Your marketing department may also be interested to know that, while inte... er... concentrated in the camps, those people would be provided all means to keep themselves in shape - such as healthy and challenging labor.
Would this labour free them in some way? I'm also looking for a tagline for the German market.
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Would this labour free them in some way?
Well, but of course! As should be obvious, healthy exercises on fresh air re-invigorate the body, and one could say that's freeing its full potential.
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safety of primarily, of course, themselves and secondarily the nation.
What about the children? Should we also think of the children??
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What you mean like prison?
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I see, so we should change what we say and how we express ourselves depending on the racial composition of the group we are in.
Yes. I have a great joke about sudden infant death syndrome, and a friend who los a little sister to it - I do not use that joke when he is around. I have acquaintances in wheelchairs, who know the best jokes about their condition - but I will not presume that is OK to repeat them in front of any wheel-chair-bound person I meet.
Of course you should think about what you are saying, based on who you are with. Comparing Bush to a monkey brings up thoughts of stupidity, comparing Michelle Obama brings up racist
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... but find another way to express that can't be misinterpreted along racial grounds.
Either you're really naive, or you've hit the nail on the head. Calling a black person a monkey is indeed racist, but maybe that's not the connotation intended. Misinterpreted indeed.
By the way, Streissand Effect?
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Yeah, because that makes pointless criticism by dumb idiots somehow better then.
You know what I think? It’s more you interpreting everything as racism. You wouldn’t have though about the racism if you weren’t searching for it.
I bet Michelle Obama actually stands over such irrelevant shit.
I mean we’re grown ups. Let people draw a towel on my head and a bomb on my chest. That says something about them. Not something about me. Since they don’t know shit about me, and everybody kno
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Wait, what do monkeys have to do with race? Is it because she's black and therefore anything said against her must be viewed through the lens of racism?
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Interesting so it is more offensive to make a reference to race than to call a person an idiot? It is so offensive that it should be censored?
I know people that find flag burning extremely offensive. So should that be banned?
Frankly I find calling Bush an idiot to be pretty offensive because it is insulting to him personally and demeaning to the people that voted for him.
I also find the image of Michelle Obama extremely offensive. She isn't an elected official, she seems like a very pleasant and intelligent
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find another way to express that can't be misinterpreted along racial grounds
No. What you’re advocating is merely another form of slavery.
I won’t be shackled by those who try to force political correctness on everyone. I’ll say what I want, how I want, when I want.
That said, I think the picture is in equally poor taste to the picture depicting George W. as a monkey.
That said, it does feel a little bit fulfilling to have both of them receive similar treatment, and revealing to see the dissimilar responses.
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I see that the Politically Correct Police has mod points today. And, like the cowards they are, they used "Overrated" to avoid metamoderation. Help, I'm being suppressed! The Man is trying to keep me down! Mutha Fuckas!
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Yes, because comparing a president's intellect to that of a monkey is exactly the same as a racist comparison of the president's wife to the physical appearance of a monkey. I know it might be nice to live in a little vacuum world in which nothing has any context, but certain things in our society are very loaded, even if when broken down, they should not be.
I think the truly sad thing here is how the first lady gets something like this wiped from the internet (more or less) while every other person who isn
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Search engine's shouldn't be responsible for the information they turn up. The people who should be ashamed of themselves are the people posting the images, not Google. It sets a dangerous precedent for censorship, and gives credibility to criticisms of media bias.
I'm personally of the opinion that showing M. Obama as a monkey is racially motivated, but I'm willing to grant that it's not black and white (ha ha). Even if it were... Even if it was a picture of M. Ob
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I'm personally of the opinion that showing M. Obama as a monkey is racially motivated
Does anyone know the original source of the image? Do we even know that it wasn't just the product of a bored /b/tard with a warezed copy of Photoshop who saw the picture of Obama and thought "I think I'll piss off some people today!"
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I'm personally of the opinion that showing M. Obama as a monkey is racially motivated
Does anyone know the original source of the image? Do we even know that it wasn't just the product of a bored /b/tard with a warezed copy of Photoshop who saw the picture of Obama and thought "I think I'll piss off some people today!"
Hang on, let me google it ...
Surprisingly, the artist also did images of whites (Score:1)
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Unsurprisingly
FTFY.
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You are joking, right? There were many complaints and objections to the various monkeyfied images of George W. Bush. I remember hearing one talk radio host saying that he wanted to charge the people responsible with treason.
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We're talking about Michelle Obama, so compare it to Laura Bush.
If it was President Obama himself, it may be a hotter topic, but more acceptable as critisism or free speech. Michelle, seemingly, has done nothing to provoke the "attack."
It is similar to the Clinton's request that Chelsea be removed from the crosshairs of social scrutiny.
How would this shake out if it was the Obama's children that were subject to it?
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They complain now because of the historical linking of black people and monkeys by racists. I can't believe I just had to explain that.
Context is everything.
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Racist nonsense. (Score:4, Informative)
Frankly, your entire premise here is ignorant bullshit. Going by your logic every white person is a racist, if they've only voted for white politicians like John Sidney McCain.